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Related to that; I am curious in what airlines think they will get or what motivates them to prioritize being deceptive, sneaky, dishonest, manipulative, lying,

Related to that; I am curious in what airlines think they will get or what motivates them to prioritize being deceptive, sneaky, dishonest, manipulative, lying, con-artists, i.e., just abusive all around? If everyone is required to provide "all in pricing" then there is no competitive advantage in being a bigger, better fraud; so must it be concluded that they think they have a competitive advantage at being the better scheming, fraudulent, manipulative con artist? The airline market is so constricted and basically well across the line of a cartel, but I guess they think they get something out of it or do they just like the getting one over on people? "ha, you thought you were going to have a good time with your family or see your grandmother's funeral for X price, but we squeezed another $200 out of you, Sucker! *board room high fives all around*" Or maybe is it a kind of momentum of the people and organizational structure that was built up over many years, aimed at facilitating the con and fraud perpetrated on the public that still has power to manipulate the airline enterprises themselves? The people who used to do that are after all, as I assume adept and oriented towards being deceptive, manipulative, scheming. It's all a bit odd to me and I would love if someone could spill the beans on what motivates the airlines on being so adamant about cheating, lying, abusing, scamming, conning and generally being really awful to people and society.

nemomarx 1y ago
First principle is that customers will choose whoever has the cheapest flights in general, and airlines that try to market on having an inclusive price without surprise fees suffer anyway because the real cost is closer to fees. The second is price discrimination - think current McDonald's prices. Soaking people who can afford it and letting people who are very frugal navigate your confusing system and membership etc is worth a good amount of money
- ghaff 1y ago
  I'll just amend to say that many on this forum are probably not super price-sensitive. But, within the broader population, many people are going to be more or less unconditionally looking to shave $100 off their family vacation. Which encourages a lot of a la carte nickel and diming over all-in charges.
- cats_4_freedom 1y ago
  Not entirely true with the cheapest = first. I've been using a reputed and magnanimous airline for years and it doesn't matter what the other low-blow contenders are offering. As long as it's in my anticipated budget, I want comfort, consistency, and courage. These undercutters have me scared they shaved off a wing to save on price. @#$% them. I fly with my airline, and these jerkoffs who want to bend over for fascism can die with it.
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    Out of interest, which airline? I've never found a particularly good one in the us.
    - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
      I absolutely love Delta. I’ll fly other airlines domestically occasionally. But I have found their customer service to be top notch and they have the best web interface/app.
      - hopelite 1y ago
        What sucks in America is that basically the whole airline industry is a hub and spoke system and the airline you’re stuck with is the airline is the airline based in your city and also dominates it, which at the least prevents competition, if it’s not intentional.
        raw_anon_1111 1y ago
        In any major city - and I’ve been to most of the top 50 markets - at least the three major airlines fly. If you’re not at that airports hub, you will probably have a layover. I use to live in Atlanta and I still fly in, out and through there often. That is the ultimate Delta hub. But you can still get to almost any other major city via the other airlines with layovers. In fact, it would probably be cheaper. For instance it is cheaper for us to fly from MCO - ATL - SJO (Costa Rica) than it is for our friends to fly the same dates from ATL - SJO. Charlotte for instance is an American hub, but you can still fly Delta from there to a hub and anywhere else you want. Right now, while Orlando is not really a hub for any airline, Southwest has the most destinations. We still choose to fly Delta and most of the time with a layover in ATL. Before you mention some small airport with only a few flights, yes I know, my parents live in south GA and the only comercial flights are three flights a day between there and Atlanta on Delta.
- cats_4_freedom 1y ago
  Nope. A good airline is hard to find (as long as they aren't f@sc1st$)
Spooky23 1y ago
It’s really easy: it’s all about revenue maximization. Honestly, people fly too much. I’m 6’5 with a 24” shoulder - flying economy is painful for me and the poor soul stuck next to me. I don’t need to fly for business and am fortunate to have a lot of PTO. So, I fly first class, business class, or not at all. If the cost is too much, i drive. There’s virtually no east coast trip that is more unpleasant to me via car. I’m young enough that I can do NY to Georgia or Chicago overnight with no ill effect. There’s so much wasted time around the airport many flights don’t even save time. I’m going on a trip to Asia in the early spring with my kid. I could save like $4000 flying in the back… but why? If that amount of money is breaking the bank, I cannot afford two weeks there anyway.
- cats_4_freedom 1y ago
  [flagged]
- tptacek 1y ago
  I regret to clarify here that you will definitely save time flying between NYC and Chicago. Would that it were otherwise! Toronto is arguable.
  - Spooky23 1y ago
    Fair. But I have a price — increased travel time yields me some Duff’s Wings in Buffalo!
- bsder 1y ago
  You won't save time, but, man, with the price of car rentals lately you will save a TON of money depending on how long you need to stay.
EE84M3i 1y ago
To add to this - is there some kind of general rule for what specific industries will devolve into the pattern of having these sorts of anti-consumer practices? Off the top of my mind I can think of cable companies, gyms, cellphone providers, airlines, live events. Is it market capture and/or the high cost of switching providers that prevents meaningful competition?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
myrmidon 1y ago
I think the main motivation is simply that reduced transparency enables better price discrimination: As a company, you want every individual to pay as much as they are willing/capable. You explicitly don't want to sell the same service for the same price to everyone.
hoistbypetard 1y ago
The Behind the Bastards podcast episodes covering Frank Lorenzo might be right down your alley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmGff5f-Ug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmGff5f-Ug (They are available from all the usual podcast places, but it just happens that the youtube mirror is the easiest way I know to link a specific episode.)
pixl97 1y ago
>board room high fives all around" Things like bonuses tend to be driven by short term gains. Who gives a hell about a few years from now when you can get an extra $xxxxxxx in your paycheck now.

nemomarx 1y ago

First principle is that customers will choose whoever has the cheapest flights in general, and airlines that try to market on having an inclusive price without surprise fees suffer anyway because the real cost is closer to fees. The second is price discrimination - think current McDonald's prices. Soaking people who can afford it and letting people who are very frugal navigate your confusing system and membership etc is worth a good amount of money

ghaff 1y ago
I'll just amend to say that many on this forum are probably not super price-sensitive. But, within the broader population, many people are going to be more or less unconditionally looking to shave $100 off their family vacation. Which encourages a lot of a la carte nickel and diming over all-in charges.
cats_4_freedom 1y ago
Not entirely true with the cheapest = first. I've been using a reputed and magnanimous airline for years and it doesn't matter what the other low-blow contenders are offering. As long as it's in my anticipated budget, I want comfort, consistency, and courage. These undercutters have me scared they shaved off a wing to save on price. @#$% them. I fly with my airline, and these jerkoffs who want to bend over for fascism can die with it.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Out of interest, which airline? I've never found a particularly good one in the us.
  - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
    I absolutely love Delta. I’ll fly other airlines domestically occasionally. But I have found their customer service to be top notch and they have the best web interface/app.
    - hopelite 1y ago
      What sucks in America is that basically the whole airline industry is a hub and spoke system and the airline you’re stuck with is the airline is the airline based in your city and also dominates it, which at the least prevents competition, if it’s not intentional.
      - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
        In any major city - and I’ve been to most of the top 50 markets - at least the three major airlines fly. If you’re not at that airports hub, you will probably have a layover. I use to live in Atlanta and I still fly in, out and through there often. That is the ultimate Delta hub. But you can still get to almost any other major city via the other airlines with layovers. In fact, it would probably be cheaper. For instance it is cheaper for us to fly from MCO - ATL - SJO (Costa Rica) than it is for our friends to fly the same dates from ATL - SJO. Charlotte for instance is an American hub, but you can still fly Delta from there to a hub and anywhere else you want. Right now, while Orlando is not really a hub for any airline, Southwest has the most destinations. We still choose to fly Delta and most of the time with a layover in ATL. Before you mention some small airport with only a few flights, yes I know, my parents live in south GA and the only comercial flights are three flights a day between there and Atlanta on Delta.
cats_4_freedom 1y ago
Nope. A good airline is hard to find (as long as they aren't f@sc1st$)

Spooky23 1y ago

It’s really easy: it’s all about revenue maximization. Honestly, people fly too much. I’m 6’5 with a 24” shoulder - flying economy is painful for me and the poor soul stuck next to me. I don’t need to fly for business and am fortunate to have a lot of PTO. So, I fly first class, business class, or not at all. If the cost is too much, i drive. There’s virtually no east coast trip that is more unpleasant to me via car. I’m young enough that I can do NY to Georgia or Chicago overnight with no ill effect. There’s so much wasted time around the airport many flights don’t even save time. I’m going on a trip to Asia in the early spring with my kid. I could save like $4000 flying in the back… but why? If that amount of money is breaking the bank, I cannot afford two weeks there anyway.

cats_4_freedom 1y ago
[flagged]
tptacek 1y ago
I regret to clarify here that you will definitely save time flying between NYC and Chicago. Would that it were otherwise! Toronto is arguable.
- Spooky23 1y ago
  Fair. But I have a price — increased travel time yields me some Duff’s Wings in Buffalo!
bsder 1y ago
You won't save time, but, man, with the price of car rentals lately you will save a TON of money depending on how long you need to stay.

EE84M3i 1y ago

To add to this - is there some kind of general rule for what specific industries will devolve into the pattern of having these sorts of anti-consumer practices? Off the top of my mind I can think of cable companies, gyms, cellphone providers, airlines, live events. Is it market capture and/or the high cost of switching providers that prevents meaningful competition?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

myrmidon 1y ago

I think the main motivation is simply that reduced transparency enables better price discrimination: As a company, you want every individual to pay as much as they are willing/capable. You explicitly don't want to sell the same service for the same price to everyone.

hoistbypetard 1y ago

The Behind the Bastards podcast episodes covering Frank Lorenzo might be right down your alley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmGff5f-Ug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmGff5f-Ug (They are available from all the usual podcast places, but it just happens that the youtube mirror is the easiest way I know to link a specific episode.)

pixl97 1y ago

>board room high fives all around" Things like bonuses tend to be driven by short term gains. Who gives a hell about a few years from now when you can get an extra $xxxxxxx in your paycheck now.