4 ms·

The new justification (to deter illegal immigration) is expecially obviously bogus because, as the law stands, people must already prove their "right to work" t

The new justification (to deter illegal immigration) is expecially obviously bogus because, as the law stands, people must already prove their "right to work" to get a job and their "right to rent" to rent accommodation. Illegal immigrants manage, they would manage, too, with digital IDs because some employers and landlords are fine exploiting them. Or the plan is in fact to be asked "papers, please" where ever you go and whatever you do.

vinay427 1y ago
In particular, this is already done using a digital ID for foreign residents (at least on most visas) in the UK, which was phased in over the past few years.
davzie 1y ago
This is really easy to fake though and employers kind of have to take your word for it that the documentation you provide is real. I'm assuming a digital ID scheme will just bring all the data together and make it instantly verifiable for employers. I would normally be suspicious about this sort of thing but I do think a lack of a single entity bringing all the data together is limiting us technologically in the UK. What Estonia have done is awesome, it'd be cool for us to work toward something like that!
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Why do they have to take your word for it? if you present a few forms of id (drivers license, etc) can't those be checked against a central DB? is someone forging physical ID cards and also getting them real numbers somehow?
  - Symbiote 1y ago
    The people who have to do the check (businesses and landlords) don't have access to the system to check those numbers, or any training on what a real identify card or passport looks like. A relative had this problem when renting out a spare room. How was she supposed to verify the Colombian passport shown to her?
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  No, it is not easy to fake. As @vinay427 mentioned this is most digital now so you get a "share code" from the Home Office, which you provide to your prospective employer. In turn they go to the Home Office's website, input the code, and should get your picture, details, and entitlement to work. That's on top of having a passport to go with it.
  - KaiserPro 1y ago
    THats only if they ask for it. I changed job recently, and they just wanted a passport.
  - gambiting 1y ago
    If you're a foreigner on a visa(or an EU settled status resident), yes. If you are a British person(or pretending to be one) then you just need to show your employer your British passport(or one of several other acceptable documents), and obviously faking a picture of a passport is pretty trivial. And since employers generally don't have access to the system that can verify passports they take your word on the document being valid.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      As someone who's just got their new British passport, faking the 3 pictures on it, and the whole passport itself, does not look trivial at all... I think it is much, much, much more common to have dodgy employers/landlords who do not carry out the checks at all because they are fine exploiting illegal immigrants, and no type of ID card would solve that...
      - gambiting 1y ago
        >>As someone who's just got their new British passport, faking the 3 pictures on it, and the whole passport itself, does not look trivial at all... A lot of employers just want a photo/scan of a passport. I'm not saying making a whole fake passport is easy, it's obviously not - but modifying a picture of a passport is not exactly rocket science.
- davzie 1y ago
  I have had many jobs and scenarios where I need to provide proof of residency and I have never once had a share code like you mention @mytailorisrich like this. The reality is that it doesn't happen like this. Usually about 6 months into your job someone forgets you haven't done the necessary checks and reaches out for you to send a couple of sketchy photos of your IDs so they can upload it to their HR system and forget about it.
tomaytotomato 1y ago
You just cherry picked two examples which are not issues in other countries with ID cards. ID cards can prove who is an illegal immigrant or not, and with the current atmosphere. I want to know and be confident that we can check people's status efficiently and correctly who's here. Sure there might be some small process mishaps but for the safety of the nation, it is worth it.
- boomskats 1y ago
  > Sure there might be some small process mishaps but for the safety of the nation, it is worth it. Just like that database that recognises your face and links it to your pornhub preferences is worth it, for the safety of the children?
- the_other 1y ago
  I don't think you mean "for the safety of the Nation". I think you mean "for my piece of mind my business is unlikely to get caught in a sting operation".
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  I did not cherry-pick anything. Anyone who is a legal immigrant can easily prove it and must prove it to live and work in the country. So what does that make anyone who cannot prove it? The point is that digital IDs make no difference to illegal immigration, as can also be seen in countries that do have ID cards...
- pjc50 1y ago
  Everyone knows that none of the countries with mandatory ID have any illegal immigrants, right? (sarcasm, obviously)
- arethuza 1y ago
  "but for the safety of the nation, it is worth it" That's a pretty chilling phrase.
  - lyu07282 1y ago

vinay427 1y ago

In particular, this is already done using a digital ID for foreign residents (at least on most visas) in the UK, which was phased in over the past few years.

davzie 1y ago

This is really easy to fake though and employers kind of have to take your word for it that the documentation you provide is real. I'm assuming a digital ID scheme will just bring all the data together and make it instantly verifiable for employers. I would normally be suspicious about this sort of thing but I do think a lack of a single entity bringing all the data together is limiting us technologically in the UK. What Estonia have done is awesome, it'd be cool for us to work toward something like that!

nemomarx 1y ago
Why do they have to take your word for it? if you present a few forms of id (drivers license, etc) can't those be checked against a central DB? is someone forging physical ID cards and also getting them real numbers somehow?
- Symbiote 1y ago
  The people who have to do the check (businesses and landlords) don't have access to the system to check those numbers, or any training on what a real identify card or passport looks like. A relative had this problem when renting out a spare room. How was she supposed to verify the Colombian passport shown to her?
mytailorisrich 1y ago
No, it is not easy to fake. As @vinay427 mentioned this is most digital now so you get a "share code" from the Home Office, which you provide to your prospective employer. In turn they go to the Home Office's website, input the code, and should get your picture, details, and entitlement to work. That's on top of having a passport to go with it.
- KaiserPro 1y ago
  THats only if they ask for it. I changed job recently, and they just wanted a passport.
- gambiting 1y ago
  If you're a foreigner on a visa(or an EU settled status resident), yes. If you are a British person(or pretending to be one) then you just need to show your employer your British passport(or one of several other acceptable documents), and obviously faking a picture of a passport is pretty trivial. And since employers generally don't have access to the system that can verify passports they take your word on the document being valid.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    As someone who's just got their new British passport, faking the 3 pictures on it, and the whole passport itself, does not look trivial at all... I think it is much, much, much more common to have dodgy employers/landlords who do not carry out the checks at all because they are fine exploiting illegal immigrants, and no type of ID card would solve that...
    - gambiting 1y ago
      >>As someone who's just got their new British passport, faking the 3 pictures on it, and the whole passport itself, does not look trivial at all... A lot of employers just want a photo/scan of a passport. I'm not saying making a whole fake passport is easy, it's obviously not - but modifying a picture of a passport is not exactly rocket science.
davzie 1y ago
I have had many jobs and scenarios where I need to provide proof of residency and I have never once had a share code like you mention @mytailorisrich like this. The reality is that it doesn't happen like this. Usually about 6 months into your job someone forgets you haven't done the necessary checks and reaches out for you to send a couple of sketchy photos of your IDs so they can upload it to their HR system and forget about it.

tomaytotomato 1y ago

You just cherry picked two examples which are not issues in other countries with ID cards. ID cards can prove who is an illegal immigrant or not, and with the current atmosphere. I want to know and be confident that we can check people's status efficiently and correctly who's here. Sure there might be some small process mishaps but for the safety of the nation, it is worth it.

boomskats 1y ago
> Sure there might be some small process mishaps but for the safety of the nation, it is worth it. Just like that database that recognises your face and links it to your pornhub preferences is worth it, for the safety of the children?
the_other 1y ago
I don't think you mean "for the safety of the Nation". I think you mean "for my piece of mind my business is unlikely to get caught in a sting operation".
mytailorisrich 1y ago
I did not cherry-pick anything. Anyone who is a legal immigrant can easily prove it and must prove it to live and work in the country. So what does that make anyone who cannot prove it? The point is that digital IDs make no difference to illegal immigration, as can also be seen in countries that do have ID cards...
pjc50 1y ago
Everyone knows that none of the countries with mandatory ID have any illegal immigrants, right? (sarcasm, obviously)
arethuza 1y ago
"but for the safety of the nation, it is worth it" That's a pretty chilling phrase.
- lyu07282 1y ago