8 ms·

Looked neat, and then I saw this: "You qualify for a $500 scholarship if you're female or from an ethnic minority group underrepresented in the software engine

by nhangen 14y ago

Looked neat, and then I saw this: "You qualify for a $500 scholarship if you're female or from an ethnic minority group underrepresented in the software engineering field (African American, Chicano/Latino, Native American, Pacific Islander, etc.). The tech world is notoriously unrepresentative of the larger population. We believe that the sooner that changes, the better off we all are." How is that not discrimination?

xiaoma 14y ago
It absolutely is discrimination, but it's a form of discrimination that many (most?) here approve of.
getsat 14y ago
Wow. They could have saved space and just said "(not White, Asian, or Indian)".
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- unit_testing 14y ago
  You're right. People with dwarfism are disproportionally not software developers, too, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care. Transgender people are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care. White males born into poverty are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care. Hey, DevBootCamp: What makes an affluent latina more important to you than an impoverished white male? What makes an affluent white woman more important to you than an impoverished Indian with dwarfism? Your organization is toxic. Go away.
  - bgilroy26 14y ago
    Hey, I'm not the biggest "diversity" cheerleader in the world, but I think this criticism is over the top. There is a significant difference between an organization's stated rules and what you can make a phone call and get just for trying. If you belong to the category of not being a white or Asian man, give it a shot. Being a sourpuss precludes working with people and figuring out what makes sense together. It isn't a good idea.
theevocater 14y ago
(I don't work for etsy) http://www.etsy.com/blog/news/2012/etsy-hacker-grants-supporting-women-in-technology/ http://www.etsy.com/blog/news/2012/etsy-hacker-grants-suppor... is why etsy is sponsoring this kind of grant at a different but similar Hacker School.
kabuks 14y ago
Almost every higher ed institution has scholarships for under-represented populations. If you can think of better ways to encourage more balance in our industry I am sincerely open to suggestions.
- nhangen 14y ago
  If balance is required, than I suspect it will there in its own due time. There is absolutely no reason to force it. I remember missing out on a college scholarship because I wasn't hispanic, and while I didn't let that stop me from pursuing my education, I'm still insulted by this sort of reverse discrimination. Why is this OK?
  - keemoboy 14y ago
    "it will there in its own due time" is naive at best! Those comments dinging Dev Bootcamp as "toxic" or practicing "reverse discrimination" are revealing a dangerous ignorance. Decades of sexism, racism, and systemic oppression of certain groups are not fixed in their own due time just by natural evolution or luck, they need opposing, direct, and intentional forces such as the one attempted here. I recommend if you really care about the subject to do some deeper reading of the ideology and reasons behind laws and trends towards bringing more absent representation into an industry or organization. There will always be individual instances of "injustice" while systematic oppression is being opposed, but whether you like it or not the system is still racist, even if you as an individual are not. So even though you missed out on your scholarship there are thousands of white privileges you've received without knowing or noticing that you need to own up to as well!
    - nhangen 14y ago
      Give me an example of this 'injustice' that you speak of? I try to convince everyone I know to become a programmer, white, black, man, woman, etc...and it doesn't matter. People gravitate to whatever they want to work on. It's not like you minorities can't buy programming books from Barnes and Noble, or can't login to online courses and start learning. If they don't have a computer, then we're talking strictly about affluence, and that's much different.
s_henry_paulson 14y ago
How is any scholarship not discrimination? Athletes, young mothers, honor students, mcdonalds employees, etc.
SilasX 14y ago
How is that not the "worst argument in the world"? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4441734 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4441734 tl;dr: The worst argument in the world is "X is Y, therefore, X must be a typical case of Y". Here, "The DBC policy is discrimination, therefore you should associate with it all the bad things you usually associate with discrimination, irrespective of whether they apply here." Stripped of its misdirection, your question/argument is, "Isn't that bad for the same reason that 'we don't hire blacks' is bad?" No, it's not. There is a sense in which this kind of discrimination is bad, but there's also a sense in which its good (i.e. disrupting the self-reinforcing cycle of certain demographics dominating the programming field and making those outside of it feel out of place). There are great arguments about which effect is stronger and/or worse, but they aren't helped by saying "That is discrimination." Disclaimer: I was in the Spring (first) cohort of DBC, though don't have as glowing a review of the program as everyone else seems to.

by nhangen 14y ago

xiaoma 14y ago

It absolutely is discrimination, but it's a form of discrimination that many (most?) here approve of.

getsat 14y ago

Wow. They could have saved space and just said "(not White, Asian, or Indian)".

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
unit_testing 14y ago
You're right. People with dwarfism are disproportionally not software developers, too, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care. Transgender people are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care. White males born into poverty are disproportionally not software developers, but it's not trendy to care about them, so DevBootCamp doesn't care. Hey, DevBootCamp: What makes an affluent latina more important to you than an impoverished white male? What makes an affluent white woman more important to you than an impoverished Indian with dwarfism? Your organization is toxic. Go away.
- bgilroy26 14y ago
  Hey, I'm not the biggest "diversity" cheerleader in the world, but I think this criticism is over the top. There is a significant difference between an organization's stated rules and what you can make a phone call and get just for trying. If you belong to the category of not being a white or Asian man, give it a shot. Being a sourpuss precludes working with people and figuring out what makes sense together. It isn't a good idea.

theevocater 14y ago

(I don't work for etsy) http://www.etsy.com/blog/news/2012/etsy-hacker-grants-supporting-women-in-technology/ http://www.etsy.com/blog/news/2012/etsy-hacker-grants-suppor... is why etsy is sponsoring this kind of grant at a different but similar Hacker School.

kabuks 14y ago

Almost every higher ed institution has scholarships for under-represented populations. If you can think of better ways to encourage more balance in our industry I am sincerely open to suggestions.

nhangen 14y ago
If balance is required, than I suspect it will there in its own due time. There is absolutely no reason to force it. I remember missing out on a college scholarship because I wasn't hispanic, and while I didn't let that stop me from pursuing my education, I'm still insulted by this sort of reverse discrimination. Why is this OK?
- keemoboy 14y ago
  "it will there in its own due time" is naive at best! Those comments dinging Dev Bootcamp as "toxic" or practicing "reverse discrimination" are revealing a dangerous ignorance. Decades of sexism, racism, and systemic oppression of certain groups are not fixed in their own due time just by natural evolution or luck, they need opposing, direct, and intentional forces such as the one attempted here. I recommend if you really care about the subject to do some deeper reading of the ideology and reasons behind laws and trends towards bringing more absent representation into an industry or organization. There will always be individual instances of "injustice" while systematic oppression is being opposed, but whether you like it or not the system is still racist, even if you as an individual are not. So even though you missed out on your scholarship there are thousands of white privileges you've received without knowing or noticing that you need to own up to as well!
  - nhangen 14y ago
    Give me an example of this 'injustice' that you speak of? I try to convince everyone I know to become a programmer, white, black, man, woman, etc...and it doesn't matter. People gravitate to whatever they want to work on. It's not like you minorities can't buy programming books from Barnes and Noble, or can't login to online courses and start learning. If they don't have a computer, then we're talking strictly about affluence, and that's much different.

s_henry_paulson 14y ago

How is any scholarship not discrimination? Athletes, young mothers, honor students, mcdonalds employees, etc.

SilasX 14y ago

How is that not the "worst argument in the world"? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4441734 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4441734 tl;dr: The worst argument in the world is "X is Y, therefore, X must be a typical case of Y". Here, "The DBC policy is discrimination, therefore you should associate with it all the bad things you usually associate with discrimination, irrespective of whether they apply here." Stripped of its misdirection, your question/argument is, "Isn't that bad for the same reason that 'we don't hire blacks' is bad?" No, it's not. There is a sense in which this kind of discrimination is bad, but there's also a sense in which its good (i.e. disrupting the self-reinforcing cycle of certain demographics dominating the programming field and making those outside of it feel out of place). There are great arguments about which effect is stronger and/or worse, but they aren't helped by saying "That is discrimination." Disclaimer: I was in the Spring (first) cohort of DBC, though don't have as glowing a review of the program as everyone else seems to.