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I've always wanted to ask an actual ref (fans are a dime a dozen)... what would have been your takeaway from how Maradona's Hand of God was called?

dylan604 1y ago
For those unfamiliar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ccNkksrfls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ccNkksrfls I just watched the replay, and I'm convinced VAR would rule it offside. So the hand of god would be irrelevant. The AR on the far side of the pitch is just out of frame at the crucial moment, so he was clearly behind the play. That's a position you never want to find yourself as an AR. I always found the AR role much more demanding than the referee. Keeping that offside line is difficult at best and nearly impossible if you're 30+ something trying to keep up with fit professional athletes in peak fitness in their 20s. Now, after that call was blown, again due to the framing, it is hard to see where the ref was looking. You can see his last position easily 30 yards from goal while Maradona makes contact about 8 yards from goal. There are at least 15 players in between the ref and the play at that point. Also, a very telling thing is that there was no conversation between the AR and the ref. On contentious plays, you'd see the ref back peddle to the AR (never take your eyes of the pitch) and have a chat about who saw what. I don't know if the ref crew had radios back in 1986, but the fact that the ref did not think it was worthy of a chat with his AR who would have had a different angle to view it says a lot about the ref's thinking. If the AR had seen it and wanted to chat with the ref, he would have stood still with his flag raised. If he felt the goal was good, he would keep his flag down and make a little run up the touchline towards midfield. The linked YT footage is cropped (pushed in I assume to remove any network branding) so the AR is out of frame. In the very last replay with the camera from behind the goal line on the near side, you can barely make out the AR but it cuts before he signals. My guess is he turned and ran up the touchline. Again, it is obvious he is out of position behind the play, so his view was more than likely blocked. At the end of the day, if you can't absolutely positively tell that something happened, you pretty much let it stand. Just because all of the defenders raised their arms does not make it offside. There's only one person that can tell you that, and he couldn't make the call so had to let it go. There's no way the ref was going to call offside. The one thing they do teach you is that if you're unsure, make a call and make everyone think you're sure. Just own it, and move on. Never had to do that for a goal, but there's plenty of times I don't know who was last to touch the ball before it went out so you turn to the AR to get a clue. It's always fun when they shrug. You just pick on what you think you saw and just confidently rule that way. It's a damn throw, just put the ball back in play. Corners vs goal kicks are more risky, so always safe to rule for the defense with a goal kick. Never want a team to score on a bad call from a ref. Of course, none of that is ever taught to a ref...in those terms. However, I think if you use the enhance feature to zoom into the ref's back pocket, you can see the cash he was paid to let it happen /s
- wyldfire 1y ago
  Very casual football/soccer fan checking in - offside seems like a challenging call to make, most of the time. I understand the rules and all of its subtleties. It seems like the AR bears a lot of responsibility for the call - marking the penultimate defender. And yeah - if the ref just glanced at the sideline -- lack of AR flag means no offside because I didn't see it and AR didn't see it ergo there's no one left to consult ergo it didn't happen. But yeah the objection IIUC was not over offside despite what the announcer says. He realizes at the end that it's an apparent handball. "At what point was he offside ... or was it a use of the hand that England are complaining about?" > ... back peddle to the AR (never take your eyes of the pitch) Is this because of the risk of violence from the players?
  - dylan604 1y ago
    > Is this because of the risk of violence from the players? that's part of it, but just in general you can't be in control if you can't see it. > But yeah the objection IIUC was not over offside despite what the announcer says. He realizes at the end that it's an apparent handball. "At what point was he offside ... or was it a use of the hand that England are complaining about?" wow, i wrote a whole diatribe about offside, and that had nothing to do with your comment <face-palm> In the modern game, VAR would wind the goal scoring play to the beginning of the play to see if there was anything missed. They would look for the first reason to stop the play. In that case, the offside would be seen first and the goal would be disallowed for that. Back then, the offside was missed by the AR so play continued. Even the England players didn't complain about the offside. They were complaining about the hand ball. It should have been the more obvious thing for a ref to see. If you see how the players are screaming about the hand ball, it is with the hand raised over the head which does look like what every defender does to imitate the AR raising the flag. However, you see the other hand comes up to slap the wrist indicating they want the foul for handling the ball. To be fair, from the commentator's perspective, the offside was clearly visible. It's only natural to think that's what everyone would be complaining about. It is possible that even the ref was looking at his AR waiting for the flag to go up and wasn't even looking at the play and missed the hand in his befuddlement at the no offside call

dylan604 1y ago

For those unfamiliar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ccNkksrfls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ccNkksrfls I just watched the replay, and I'm convinced VAR would rule it offside. So the hand of god would be irrelevant. The AR on the far side of the pitch is just out of frame at the crucial moment, so he was clearly behind the play. That's a position you never want to find yourself as an AR. I always found the AR role much more demanding than the referee. Keeping that offside line is difficult at best and nearly impossible if you're 30+ something trying to keep up with fit professional athletes in peak fitness in their 20s. Now, after that call was blown, again due to the framing, it is hard to see where the ref was looking. You can see his last position easily 30 yards from goal while Maradona makes contact about 8 yards from goal. There are at least 15 players in between the ref and the play at that point. Also, a very telling thing is that there was no conversation between the AR and the ref. On contentious plays, you'd see the ref back peddle to the AR (never take your eyes of the pitch) and have a chat about who saw what. I don't know if the ref crew had radios back in 1986, but the fact that the ref did not think it was worthy of a chat with his AR who would have had a different angle to view it says a lot about the ref's thinking. If the AR had seen it and wanted to chat with the ref, he would have stood still with his flag raised. If he felt the goal was good, he would keep his flag down and make a little run up the touchline towards midfield. The linked YT footage is cropped (pushed in I assume to remove any network branding) so the AR is out of frame. In the very last replay with the camera from behind the goal line on the near side, you can barely make out the AR but it cuts before he signals. My guess is he turned and ran up the touchline. Again, it is obvious he is out of position behind the play, so his view was more than likely blocked. At the end of the day, if you can't absolutely positively tell that something happened, you pretty much let it stand. Just because all of the defenders raised their arms does not make it offside. There's only one person that can tell you that, and he couldn't make the call so had to let it go. There's no way the ref was going to call offside. The one thing they do teach you is that if you're unsure, make a call and make everyone think you're sure. Just own it, and move on. Never had to do that for a goal, but there's plenty of times I don't know who was last to touch the ball before it went out so you turn to the AR to get a clue. It's always fun when they shrug. You just pick on what you think you saw and just confidently rule that way. It's a damn throw, just put the ball back in play. Corners vs goal kicks are more risky, so always safe to rule for the defense with a goal kick. Never want a team to score on a bad call from a ref. Of course, none of that is ever taught to a ref...in those terms. However, I think if you use the enhance feature to zoom into the ref's back pocket, you can see the cash he was paid to let it happen /s

wyldfire 1y ago
Very casual football/soccer fan checking in - offside seems like a challenging call to make, most of the time. I understand the rules and all of its subtleties. It seems like the AR bears a lot of responsibility for the call - marking the penultimate defender. And yeah - if the ref just glanced at the sideline -- lack of AR flag means no offside because I didn't see it and AR didn't see it ergo there's no one left to consult ergo it didn't happen. But yeah the objection IIUC was not over offside despite what the announcer says. He realizes at the end that it's an apparent handball. "At what point was he offside ... or was it a use of the hand that England are complaining about?" > ... back peddle to the AR (never take your eyes of the pitch) Is this because of the risk of violence from the players?
- dylan604 1y ago
  > Is this because of the risk of violence from the players? that's part of it, but just in general you can't be in control if you can't see it. > But yeah the objection IIUC was not over offside despite what the announcer says. He realizes at the end that it's an apparent handball. "At what point was he offside ... or was it a use of the hand that England are complaining about?" wow, i wrote a whole diatribe about offside, and that had nothing to do with your comment <face-palm> In the modern game, VAR would wind the goal scoring play to the beginning of the play to see if there was anything missed. They would look for the first reason to stop the play. In that case, the offside would be seen first and the goal would be disallowed for that. Back then, the offside was missed by the AR so play continued. Even the England players didn't complain about the offside. They were complaining about the hand ball. It should have been the more obvious thing for a ref to see. If you see how the players are screaming about the hand ball, it is with the hand raised over the head which does look like what every defender does to imitate the AR raising the flag. However, you see the other hand comes up to slap the wrist indicating they want the foul for handling the ball. To be fair, from the commentator's perspective, the offside was clearly visible. It's only natural to think that's what everyone would be complaining about. It is possible that even the ref was looking at his AR waiting for the flag to go up and wasn't even looking at the play and missed the hand in his befuddlement at the no offside call