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I came here to make a feelgood response and I’m shocked by the highly upvoted grumpiness! “It costs nothing to be kind.” Whenever I go anywhere or make plans

I came here to make a feelgood response and I’m shocked by the highly upvoted grumpiness! “It costs nothing to be kind.” Whenever I go anywhere or make plans to do something social, I try to invite everyone I can. You’re sending the invite already, the marginal extra keystrokes it takes to add someone is trivial. And even if you know they’re not interested, the invitation might bring them some joy, so why not? Life is not a game where people build up points with you and you start to be kind to them only if they maintain themselves above a threshold.

the_snooze 1y ago
Extending an invitation is indeed a kindness. But repeatedly declining them signals that the invitations are unwelcome and unvalued. It's really that simple. Relationships aren't one-sided.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  Coincidentally, I just had a conversation with my wife about this. She likes doing girls-night with her friends, but she gets frustrated that nobody else prompts it. They always say yes, and they always have a good time, but she complains that it’s always her doing the inviting, and that it’s one-sided. To me, a relationship doesn’t need two people to maintain and keep it going: it only really needs one, so be that one person! I realize people are busy and have their own lives, but I still call, I still ask how they are, I still ask what they’ve been up to. Gestures like these are tiny, tiny investments that pay off in the form of a rich, robust social life. Nobody has ever told me stop reaching out, stop trying, but if they did, of course I would.
  - the_snooze 1y ago
    We're talking about different things here. In the linked article, Anna never accepts the invitation, nor does she propose alternatives. It's OK for someone to intiate contact more often than others, as long as the counterparty actually accepts the invitation every so often (or picks up the phone or chats or responds positively). That's not the case with Anna, who repeatedly says "nah" in the face of consistent kindness and consideration.
    - walterbell 1y ago
      > as long as the counterparty actually accepts the invitation every so often Per the article, the collegiate counterparty did accept other invitations: We ended up hanging out quite a bit during those early months. The social ritual in the article's title was specifically about party invitations: “Why do you keep inviting Anna out when she’ll just say no?” “I know she’s always going to say no, but that’s not the point. I invite her out so she’ll always feel included in the group.”
      - the_snooze 1y ago
        If it's indeed specifically about party invites and not other things, then you're right and I misread it. I wish the author were more explicit about that beyond just a fleeting line at the beginning "We ended up hanging out quite a bit during those early months." My read was that Anna never acted like she's actually part the group because she's only ever shown repeatedly declining invitations.
        walterbell 1y ago
        Another comment relevant to partying: definitely a goody-two-shoes
  - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
    In my experience, it takes two people, but they're not necessarily playing the same role. Social circles are maintained amongst pretty much any group that has at least one person who is willing to take the initiative to invite people to things, and at least one person who almost always says "yes" to invitations. I tend to take a relatively Stirnerite view of it: As long as I'm getting more enjoyment out of hanging out with someone than the effort of inviting them, I'll keep inviting them even if they never proactively invite me to do stuff, because it's still in my self-interest. If someone always says "Hell yeah", or at least "Can't do it that day, how about this other day", then the negatives of slight inconvenience of planning are wildly dwarfed by the positive of hanging out with this person I like to hang out with. If they say no frequently, then I'm experiencing far more negatives (beyond the linear scaling of energy to invite per frequency of meetups, rejection is a big demotivator).
- BeetleB 1y ago
  > But repeatedly declining them signals that the invitations are unwelcome and unvalued Or they just can't make it each time. > It's really that simple. Simple, yet wrong.
matheusmoreira 1y ago
> Life is not a game where people build up points with you and you start to be kind to them only if they maintain themselves above a threshold. Be careful. It is trivial for others to take advantage of such selfless kindness. Ingratitude is common, as is sociopathy. Altruists often discover that the world does not reciprocate.
- cbolton 1y ago
  Is there any data on this? Ingratitude and sociopathy are not at all common in my experience. Differences in character, defensiveness, insecurity are more common already (and sometimes they look like ingratitude when you don't understand the other person's point of view), but the vast majority of people I meet are just nice...
- anticrymactic 1y ago
  > Be careful. It is trivial for others to take advantage of such selfless kindness. What harm does is do? Altruistic kindness is not affected by the response. That's the point. Being "exploited" for kindness is not possible, it's not a currency. > Ingratitude is common, as is sociopathy. Source? If anything, most anecdotes point to the opposite, gratitude and kindness is extremely common.
- bshacklett 1y ago
  And yet, at the end of the day, I always sleep better knowing that I put the effort in to be a good person, even if it didn’t work out the way I’d hoped. I get the cynicism; it’s easy to feel like the world is just full of uncaring people sometimes. But, does adding one more help?
  - carlosjobim 1y ago
    You aren't a good person for being subservient. You are a bad person, because you are enabling bad people. Evil is in most cases a Yin/Yang system of abuser and willing victim. Both are dependent on each other for their common goal of creating evil in this world. The abuser from primitive motives: "I have to do it to them, because if I'm not an abuser, somebody will make me a victim." The willing victim because he thinks it's an easy path to be a good person: "I don't have to engage my heart and soul, just take abuse and each "point" of abuse turns into good boy points for me." There is nothing to be admired about victims and the victim cult is a mistake. They deserve empathy and help, they don't deserve admiration.
ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
> I’m shocked by the highly upvoted grumpiness! Sadly, I’m not. People can be quite cruel; especially as a mob. You’d think that a crowd like nerds, with our famously awkward aspect, and the way so many of us were treated, would be empathetic, but it seems that the treatment has actually had the opposite effect. I suspect many of us have had “nerdy” bosses that were walking nightmares. It didn’t happen to me, but that’s through no fault of my own. I had a lot of stuff happen to me, that forced me to become empathetic. If that hadn’t happened, I suspect I would have been a real demon.
- happymellon 1y ago
  Bullied people repeating the cycle of bullying is unfortunately not a new phenomenon.
- watwut 1y ago
  > You’d think that a crowd like nerds, with our famously awkward aspect, and the way so many of us were treated, would be empathetic, but it seems that the treatment has actually had the opposite effect. I suspect many of us have had “nerdy” bosses that were walking nightmares. The amount of nerds in tech is overstated and so is the absurd assumption that everyone here was bullied. And second, a lot of what we call "not having social skills" is frequently an euphemism for "being mean and then wondering why people avoid me" situation. It may be unintentional in some case, it may be they dont see relationship between other peoples behavior and their own. But it is a real thing.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    I think that the composition of “technical” people has changed, over the years. When I was getting my start, it was almost exclusively nerdy white males. That is no longer the case. Tech now looks a lot more like any other community. Misanthropy is often a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s different from social awkwardness or fear. For myself, I’m “on the spectrum,” so high-stimulus environments are exhausting. That describes most social gatherings; especially amongst neurotypicals. It’s unfair for me to insist that they cater to my proclivities, and it’s also unfair for me to insist that they understand why I am the way I am. One of the things that I learned, early on, is that I am the variable. It’s not something to be self-pitying about, but understanding myself, helps me to interact better with others. I appreciate it when others understand, but I don’t expect it.
guappa 1y ago
Nobody wants to be the clingy weirdo who doesn't take no for an answer…

the_snooze 1y ago

Extending an invitation is indeed a kindness. But repeatedly declining them signals that the invitations are unwelcome and unvalued. It's really that simple. Relationships aren't one-sided.

ryandrake 1y ago
Coincidentally, I just had a conversation with my wife about this. She likes doing girls-night with her friends, but she gets frustrated that nobody else prompts it. They always say yes, and they always have a good time, but she complains that it’s always her doing the inviting, and that it’s one-sided. To me, a relationship doesn’t need two people to maintain and keep it going: it only really needs one, so be that one person! I realize people are busy and have their own lives, but I still call, I still ask how they are, I still ask what they’ve been up to. Gestures like these are tiny, tiny investments that pay off in the form of a rich, robust social life. Nobody has ever told me stop reaching out, stop trying, but if they did, of course I would.
- the_snooze 1y ago
  We're talking about different things here. In the linked article, Anna never accepts the invitation, nor does she propose alternatives. It's OK for someone to intiate contact more often than others, as long as the counterparty actually accepts the invitation every so often (or picks up the phone or chats or responds positively). That's not the case with Anna, who repeatedly says "nah" in the face of consistent kindness and consideration.
  - walterbell 1y ago
    > as long as the counterparty actually accepts the invitation every so often Per the article, the collegiate counterparty did accept other invitations: We ended up hanging out quite a bit during those early months. The social ritual in the article's title was specifically about party invitations: “Why do you keep inviting Anna out when she’ll just say no?” “I know she’s always going to say no, but that’s not the point. I invite her out so she’ll always feel included in the group.”
    - the_snooze 1y ago
      If it's indeed specifically about party invites and not other things, then you're right and I misread it. I wish the author were more explicit about that beyond just a fleeting line at the beginning "We ended up hanging out quite a bit during those early months." My read was that Anna never acted like she's actually part the group because she's only ever shown repeatedly declining invitations.
      - walterbell 1y ago
        Another comment relevant to partying: definitely a goody-two-shoes
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  In my experience, it takes two people, but they're not necessarily playing the same role. Social circles are maintained amongst pretty much any group that has at least one person who is willing to take the initiative to invite people to things, and at least one person who almost always says "yes" to invitations. I tend to take a relatively Stirnerite view of it: As long as I'm getting more enjoyment out of hanging out with someone than the effort of inviting them, I'll keep inviting them even if they never proactively invite me to do stuff, because it's still in my self-interest. If someone always says "Hell yeah", or at least "Can't do it that day, how about this other day", then the negatives of slight inconvenience of planning are wildly dwarfed by the positive of hanging out with this person I like to hang out with. If they say no frequently, then I'm experiencing far more negatives (beyond the linear scaling of energy to invite per frequency of meetups, rejection is a big demotivator).
BeetleB 1y ago
> But repeatedly declining them signals that the invitations are unwelcome and unvalued Or they just can't make it each time. > It's really that simple. Simple, yet wrong.

matheusmoreira 1y ago

> Life is not a game where people build up points with you and you start to be kind to them only if they maintain themselves above a threshold. Be careful. It is trivial for others to take advantage of such selfless kindness. Ingratitude is common, as is sociopathy. Altruists often discover that the world does not reciprocate.

cbolton 1y ago
Is there any data on this? Ingratitude and sociopathy are not at all common in my experience. Differences in character, defensiveness, insecurity are more common already (and sometimes they look like ingratitude when you don't understand the other person's point of view), but the vast majority of people I meet are just nice...
anticrymactic 1y ago
> Be careful. It is trivial for others to take advantage of such selfless kindness. What harm does is do? Altruistic kindness is not affected by the response. That's the point. Being "exploited" for kindness is not possible, it's not a currency. > Ingratitude is common, as is sociopathy. Source? If anything, most anecdotes point to the opposite, gratitude and kindness is extremely common.
bshacklett 1y ago
And yet, at the end of the day, I always sleep better knowing that I put the effort in to be a good person, even if it didn’t work out the way I’d hoped. I get the cynicism; it’s easy to feel like the world is just full of uncaring people sometimes. But, does adding one more help?
- carlosjobim 1y ago
  You aren't a good person for being subservient. You are a bad person, because you are enabling bad people. Evil is in most cases a Yin/Yang system of abuser and willing victim. Both are dependent on each other for their common goal of creating evil in this world. The abuser from primitive motives: "I have to do it to them, because if I'm not an abuser, somebody will make me a victim." The willing victim because he thinks it's an easy path to be a good person: "I don't have to engage my heart and soul, just take abuse and each "point" of abuse turns into good boy points for me." There is nothing to be admired about victims and the victim cult is a mistake. They deserve empathy and help, they don't deserve admiration.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

> I’m shocked by the highly upvoted grumpiness! Sadly, I’m not. People can be quite cruel; especially as a mob. You’d think that a crowd like nerds, with our famously awkward aspect, and the way so many of us were treated, would be empathetic, but it seems that the treatment has actually had the opposite effect. I suspect many of us have had “nerdy” bosses that were walking nightmares. It didn’t happen to me, but that’s through no fault of my own. I had a lot of stuff happen to me, that forced me to become empathetic. If that hadn’t happened, I suspect I would have been a real demon.

happymellon 1y ago
Bullied people repeating the cycle of bullying is unfortunately not a new phenomenon.
watwut 1y ago
> You’d think that a crowd like nerds, with our famously awkward aspect, and the way so many of us were treated, would be empathetic, but it seems that the treatment has actually had the opposite effect. I suspect many of us have had “nerdy” bosses that were walking nightmares. The amount of nerds in tech is overstated and so is the absurd assumption that everyone here was bullied. And second, a lot of what we call "not having social skills" is frequently an euphemism for "being mean and then wondering why people avoid me" situation. It may be unintentional in some case, it may be they dont see relationship between other peoples behavior and their own. But it is a real thing.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  I think that the composition of “technical” people has changed, over the years. When I was getting my start, it was almost exclusively nerdy white males. That is no longer the case. Tech now looks a lot more like any other community. Misanthropy is often a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s different from social awkwardness or fear. For myself, I’m “on the spectrum,” so high-stimulus environments are exhausting. That describes most social gatherings; especially amongst neurotypicals. It’s unfair for me to insist that they cater to my proclivities, and it’s also unfair for me to insist that they understand why I am the way I am. One of the things that I learned, early on, is that I am the variable. It’s not something to be self-pitying about, but understanding myself, helps me to interact better with others. I appreciate it when others understand, but I don’t expect it.

guappa 1y ago

Nobody wants to be the clingy weirdo who doesn't take no for an answer…