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EU in practice serves no other function but to deindustrialize Europe and make it entirely dependent on the US, but even more so, China and Russia. In 2024 Eur

EU in practice serves no other function but to deindustrialize Europe and make it entirely dependent on the US, but even more so, China and Russia. In 2024 European countries paid more to Russia for gas than to Ukraine for aid, and I think this is still the case in 2025. We shut down industry because it's not environmentally friendly and then import from the worst polluters in the world. If I was China and Russia and I wanted to completely neutralize Europe as a rival there is no better way I could ever imagine to do it than what the EU is doing. You could say that EU can be fixed, sure, in principle, but we know it won't be fixed. We know it will only get worse because the rot has become systemic. If we were to objectively consider Europe, and say what could one do to prevent a war between Europe and other powers, there generally are two things. Prevent others from attacking Europe, and prevent Europe from resisting when others attack it. European politicians have chosen the second option. You can see it from how many people are willing to fight, you can see it from Europe's response to Russian aggression. Europe may be stronger than Russia on paper, but it pains me dearly to say that we have already surrendered to Russia.

lloeki 1y ago
In 2024 EU gas imports were 19% from Russia, down from 45% before the war with Ukraine, IOW cut down the revenue stream by more than a half. And EU just decided last week to forbid all Russian gas imports starting Jan 1st 2027, among other things. I don't think you have your story straight.
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russian-fossil-fuels-in-third-year-of-invasion-surpass-financial-aid-sent-to-ukraine/ https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russ... > EU imports of Russian fossil fuels in third year of invasion surpass financial aid sent to Ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more-russian-oil-gas-than-financial-aid-ukraine-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more... > EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxk454kxz8o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxk454kxz8o > How the West is helping Russia to fund its war on Ukraine https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/27/europe-imports-more-russian-gas-aiding-wartime-economy-report-finds https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/27/europe-imports-more... > Europe imports more Russian gas, aiding wartime economy, report finds https://europeannewsroom.com/why-is-europe-still-paying-russia-billions-for-oil-and-gas/ https://europeannewsroom.com/why-is-europe-still-paying-russ... > Why is Europe still paying Russia billions for oil and gas? --- > I don't think you have your story straight. I do. You don't. The commitment for 2027 is great, but that is about 3 years later than it should have come, and it's also made without an actual plan to implement it.
  - lloeki 1y ago
    If 2024 (19%) is more than the help to Ukraine that means the cut of cash flow to Russia i.e the drop from 45% to 19% (26%) is also more than the help to Ukraine. > that is about 3 years later than it should have come We can always wish it would be possible to arbitrarily turn a big faucet closed overnight, the harsh reality is that one can't turn their own economic, industrial, and ultimately social system to a grinding halt as well, which is counterproductive to any effort at fighting this war. Note that the original plan from 2022 was to cut by two thirds within a year and completely by 2030, so 2027 is 3 years earlier. You could argue that the mistake was to have 45% of pre-war gas imports coming from a single source... but it's hard to argue that EU is not pulling their weight in this fight given the hole they were in.
    - flanked-evergl 1y ago
      China and India is buying all the gas that Europe is not. Russia is doing pretty okay financially. And this helps China further undercut European industry. Europe dug their own hole, against the advice of others. German diplomats were laughing at Trump in 2019 when he warned them against total dependency on Russian energy. They don't get extra points for creating the conditions for the war and then creating the conditions for its continuation.
      - lloeki 1y ago
        I don't see how EU would have any bearing on China's policy to buy gas. By definition if any money not spent by the EU is somehow compensated by China buying the then-unsold gas then EU decisions regarding spending money on Russian gas don't matter and the whole rhetoric falls on its face. Germans were laughing at Trump because - however in a position of power he may be - he's a total clown. Everyone knew that the dependency was a problem, way before the war. Fun fact, the U.S continues importing goods from Russia, including massive amounts of fertilisers, as well as palladium, uranium and plutonium. But I see we're moving goalposts here, and the discussion is largely unproductive, so I'll disengage.
        1y ago
kalaksi 1y ago
Pretty wild claims, but I guess you're entitled to your opinion.
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  It's factual. Industry is moving out of Europe to China. EU is still dependent on Russian gas. If you think I'm wrong, tell me about what. --- https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russian-fossil-fuels-in-third-year-of-invasion-surpass-financial-aid-sent-to-ukraine/ https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russ... > EU imports of Russian fossil fuels in third year of invasion surpass financial aid sent to Ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more-russian-oil-gas-than-financial-aid-ukraine-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more... > EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report
  - kalaksi 1y ago
    Oh, I'm well aware how Europe is and has been dependent on Russian fossil fuels. It's not simple to just end it quickly, but the progress is ongoing. I meant mostly everything else in your comment.
    - flanked-evergl 1y ago
      Is European industry not mostly relocating to Asia?
      - kalaksi 1y ago
        I don't know, how does it relate to the claims in your comment?
        flanked-evergl 1y ago
        > EU in practice serves no other function but to deindustrialize Europe and make it entirely dependent on the US, but even more so, China and Russia. If EU is doing something, and what it is doing is resulting in the deindustrializing EU and making EU dependent on Russia and China ... that is the entirety of my claim. You could say that it's not in China's interest to have EU dependent on it, maybe, that is a pretty wild claim, but maybe. But we have seen how dependence on despotic powers has worked out with Russia, and it has not gone swimmingly. China is also incidentally one of the biggest buyers of Russian gas today. All the gas that Europe no longer buys from Russia goes to China on the cheap so they can further undercut European industry.

lloeki 1y ago

In 2024 EU gas imports were 19% from Russia, down from 45% before the war with Ukraine, IOW cut down the revenue stream by more than a half. And EU just decided last week to forbid all Russian gas imports starting Jan 1st 2027, among other things. I don't think you have your story straight.

flanked-evergl 1y ago
https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russian-fossil-fuels-in-third-year-of-invasion-surpass-financial-aid-sent-to-ukraine/ https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russ... > EU imports of Russian fossil fuels in third year of invasion surpass financial aid sent to Ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more-russian-oil-gas-than-financial-aid-ukraine-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more... > EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxk454kxz8o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxk454kxz8o > How the West is helping Russia to fund its war on Ukraine https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/27/europe-imports-more-russian-gas-aiding-wartime-economy-report-finds https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/3/27/europe-imports-more... > Europe imports more Russian gas, aiding wartime economy, report finds https://europeannewsroom.com/why-is-europe-still-paying-russia-billions-for-oil-and-gas/ https://europeannewsroom.com/why-is-europe-still-paying-russ... > Why is Europe still paying Russia billions for oil and gas? --- > I don't think you have your story straight. I do. You don't. The commitment for 2027 is great, but that is about 3 years later than it should have come, and it's also made without an actual plan to implement it.
- lloeki 1y ago
  If 2024 (19%) is more than the help to Ukraine that means the cut of cash flow to Russia i.e the drop from 45% to 19% (26%) is also more than the help to Ukraine. > that is about 3 years later than it should have come We can always wish it would be possible to arbitrarily turn a big faucet closed overnight, the harsh reality is that one can't turn their own economic, industrial, and ultimately social system to a grinding halt as well, which is counterproductive to any effort at fighting this war. Note that the original plan from 2022 was to cut by two thirds within a year and completely by 2030, so 2027 is 3 years earlier. You could argue that the mistake was to have 45% of pre-war gas imports coming from a single source... but it's hard to argue that EU is not pulling their weight in this fight given the hole they were in.
  - flanked-evergl 1y ago
    China and India is buying all the gas that Europe is not. Russia is doing pretty okay financially. And this helps China further undercut European industry. Europe dug their own hole, against the advice of others. German diplomats were laughing at Trump in 2019 when he warned them against total dependency on Russian energy. They don't get extra points for creating the conditions for the war and then creating the conditions for its continuation.
    - lloeki 1y ago
      I don't see how EU would have any bearing on China's policy to buy gas. By definition if any money not spent by the EU is somehow compensated by China buying the then-unsold gas then EU decisions regarding spending money on Russian gas don't matter and the whole rhetoric falls on its face. Germans were laughing at Trump because - however in a position of power he may be - he's a total clown. Everyone knew that the dependency was a problem, way before the war. Fun fact, the U.S continues importing goods from Russia, including massive amounts of fertilisers, as well as palladium, uranium and plutonium. But I see we're moving goalposts here, and the discussion is largely unproductive, so I'll disengage.
      - 1y ago

kalaksi 1y ago

Pretty wild claims, but I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

flanked-evergl 1y ago
It's factual. Industry is moving out of Europe to China. EU is still dependent on Russian gas. If you think I'm wrong, tell me about what. --- https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russian-fossil-fuels-in-third-year-of-invasion-surpass-financial-aid-sent-to-ukraine/ https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russ... > EU imports of Russian fossil fuels in third year of invasion surpass financial aid sent to Ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more-russian-oil-gas-than-financial-aid-ukraine-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more... > EU spends more on Russian oil and gas than financial aid to Ukraine – report
- kalaksi 1y ago
  Oh, I'm well aware how Europe is and has been dependent on Russian fossil fuels. It's not simple to just end it quickly, but the progress is ongoing. I meant mostly everything else in your comment.
  - flanked-evergl 1y ago
    Is European industry not mostly relocating to Asia?
    - kalaksi 1y ago
      I don't know, how does it relate to the claims in your comment?
      - flanked-evergl 1y ago
        > EU in practice serves no other function but to deindustrialize Europe and make it entirely dependent on the US, but even more so, China and Russia. If EU is doing something, and what it is doing is resulting in the deindustrializing EU and making EU dependent on Russia and China ... that is the entirety of my claim. You could say that it's not in China's interest to have EU dependent on it, maybe, that is a pretty wild claim, but maybe. But we have seen how dependence on despotic powers has worked out with Russia, and it has not gone swimmingly. China is also incidentally one of the biggest buyers of Russian gas today. All the gas that Europe no longer buys from Russia goes to China on the cheap so they can further undercut European industry.