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sell out to China completely Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. Let Europe sell tens of billions of ASML EUV machines and Airbus plan

sell out to China completely Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. Let Europe sell tens of billions of ASML EUV machines and Airbus planes to China. Sell what each region is best at. Mutual benefits. Crazy idea right?

porridgeraisin 1y ago
EUV machines are not europe's to sell. It's all american owned IP and the "EUV part" itself is american manufactured.
- pjc50 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding > ASML Holding N.V. (commonly shortened to ASML, originally standing for Advanced Semiconductor Materials Lithography) is a Dutch multinational corporation
  - yostrovs 1y ago
    You missed this part in the History section: "In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) it operates under is funded by the US government, licensing must be approved by Congress."
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    ASML just makes the steppers. The EUV secret sauce is made by Cymer in the US and uses US R&D licensed of Sandia Labs. US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish. ASML has no EU golden goose of its own that's why it has to obey US rules and policies.
    - lossolo 1y ago
      > US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish Then why are they not doing it? Isn't it in the national interest? Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? Why is there only one company in the world capable of doing it if they are "just steppers"? btw what is used now in EUV machines are step and scan scanners and ASML builds the whole EUV scanner system (stages, metrology, controls, system integration). Scanners replaced steppers for leading edge nodes. Oh and Cymer is owned by ASML from 2013, so it’s ASML's own US light source business working with TRUMPF (Germany) for the CO2 drive lasers.
      - blargthorwars 1y ago
        >Then why are they not doing it? Because ASMR is doing fine by keeping its stuff out of the hands of the Chinese Communist Party.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? They had a stepper manufacturer, Silicon Valley Group (SVG), and ASML bought it, that's how ASML got the EUV license from the US.
        lossolo 1y ago
        SVG didn’t hand ASML a magic EUV license. ASML bought SVG lithography two decades ago to expand in dry/immersion optical litho and US market access. EUV matured later. SVG had momentum in DUV and still couldn't sustain at 193nm while EUV is an order of magnitude more complex. ASML builds the whole scanner and owns the integration IP that makes the parts actually produce yield at scale. The light source matters but without ASML's stages, metrology, optics integration, contamination control, control software etc etc you've got a science project instead of a tool a fab can run. ASML won because the integration problem beat almost everyone else.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  - porridgeraisin 1y ago
    Just read further into the history section of the same page, you don't have to be obtuse and post the full form of the company, everyone here knows this. The world is nuanced, and this is not reddit.
- prmoustache 1y ago
  This is not relevant. With AI, US Big-Tech made sure to show the world that IP is not a thing anymore.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  People are downvitng you even though you're right.
  - porridgeraisin 1y ago
    It's a classic
lm28469 1y ago
It's always the same, free market when it goes my way, fuck you if it goes your way. In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west, it would be better to build trust and commerce now than attempt to delay it with artificial borders (tariffs, export bans, &c.), we're just delaying the inevitable and making a (commercial) enemy for no reason
- myrmidon 1y ago
  > In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west This is not at all obvious or inevitable. The exact same concerns where voiced when much of the electronics industry moved to Japan 30 years ago, but "Japan doing everything better than the west" never really happened. China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia.
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia. And that's totally fine to Chinese people. They don't want to work in a factory forever. They too, would like cushy office jobs.
Luker88 1y ago
More shortsighted than crazy, imho. EU tried that with Russia, then we were dependent on oil/gas, and somehow the dictatorial regime fscked us on Ukraine, and now all of us are wasting so much more time and money. Everybody already knows China is going to invade Taiwan. The global chip market is not going to like that, and this will happen only because we played the good guy with a dictator. And then all of this will be retroactively be seen as aiding and collaborating with evil, again. "Curse your sudden and inevitable betrayal", again and again.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  Why does Europe need to care about Taiwan? Ukraine I get, it's a security concern for us. But some island far away with a tenuous independence claim?
  - Luker88 1y ago
    Ah, to be young and new here. TSMC (taiwan) is the only company that has reached the latest and greatest chips tech. Apple gets their chips from Taiwan only. AMD. Intel. Everyone. Taiwan does not let TSMC export the latest tech, exactly because they would lose USA protection. ...basically it's a 160B$ industry with something like 70% of the global output, as per last year data. Now imagine Taiwan blowing up the industry to prevent China from controlling it, or China destroying the industry to crash the global economy, weaken the USA protection and come back a few years later. China will not be affected much by the sudden non-existence of Taiwan Chip industry. They produce everything internally. The rest of the world would be thrown 5+ years back in terms of tech, and I don't even want to know how much it will take to ramp up older production elsewhere. Remember the problems caused by Covid, where the car industry had problems getting chips? That was a mere shift in who gets the chips first, the production was still there. 70% less global chip production? Buy a cars/computers/whatever as soon as China invades, it's going to last you for a while.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      This still sounds like a problem caused by the US that should be for the US to worry about.
constantcrying 1y ago
>Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. The German economy can not survive that. There is no "mutual benefit" when what you are doing is an existential risk to the other side.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  Yea but French and Netherlands economy will be great. German car companies will get a kick in competition and make better cars. Consumers win.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    The German car industry will not survive and Germany, together with the EU will go through a major economic crisis. That the Netherlands adds 500 jobs making EUV machines is a tiny consolation for mass unemployment in Germany, Italy, the Czech Republic, Hungary and France with millions of jobs lost. Again, free trade is an insane idea when the proposition of one side is an existential threat to the other side.
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? It goes both ways as well. German cars are already suffering in China as tariff retaliation.
      - constantcrying 1y ago
        >So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? Certainly the preferable alternative.

porridgeraisin 1y ago

EUV machines are not europe's to sell. It's all american owned IP and the "EUV part" itself is american manufactured.

pjc50 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding > ASML Holding N.V. (commonly shortened to ASML, originally standing for Advanced Semiconductor Materials Lithography) is a Dutch multinational corporation
- yostrovs 1y ago
  You missed this part in the History section: "In 1997, ASML began studying a shift to using extreme ultraviolet and in 1999 joined a consortium, including Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) it operates under is funded by the US government, licensing must be approved by Congress."
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  ASML just makes the steppers. The EUV secret sauce is made by Cymer in the US and uses US R&D licensed of Sandia Labs. US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish. ASML has no EU golden goose of its own that's why it has to obey US rules and policies.
  - lossolo 1y ago
    > US can always retract the EUV license and sell the Cymer light sources to Canon or Nikon if they wish Then why are they not doing it? Isn't it in the national interest? Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? Why is there only one company in the world capable of doing it if they are "just steppers"? btw what is used now in EUV machines are step and scan scanners and ASML builds the whole EUV scanner system (stages, metrology, controls, system integration). Scanners replaced steppers for leading edge nodes. Oh and Cymer is owned by ASML from 2013, so it’s ASML's own US light source business working with TRUMPF (Germany) for the CO2 drive lasers.
    - blargthorwars 1y ago
      >Then why are they not doing it? Because ASMR is doing fine by keeping its stuff out of the hands of the Chinese Communist Party.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >Why not create a US company that makes EUV machines like ASML does? They had a stepper manufacturer, Silicon Valley Group (SVG), and ASML bought it, that's how ASML got the EUV license from the US.
      - lossolo 1y ago
        SVG didn’t hand ASML a magic EUV license. ASML bought SVG lithography two decades ago to expand in dry/immersion optical litho and US market access. EUV matured later. SVG had momentum in DUV and still couldn't sustain at 193nm while EUV is an order of magnitude more complex. ASML builds the whole scanner and owns the integration IP that makes the parts actually produce yield at scale. The light source matters but without ASML's stages, metrology, optics integration, contamination control, control software etc etc you've got a science project instead of a tool a fab can run. ASML won because the integration problem beat almost everyone else.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
- porridgeraisin 1y ago
  Just read further into the history section of the same page, you don't have to be obtuse and post the full form of the company, everyone here knows this. The world is nuanced, and this is not reddit.
prmoustache 1y ago
This is not relevant. With AI, US Big-Tech made sure to show the world that IP is not a thing anymore.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
People are downvitng you even though you're right.
- porridgeraisin 1y ago
  It's a classic

lm28469 1y ago

It's always the same, free market when it goes my way, fuck you if it goes your way. In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west, it would be better to build trust and commerce now than attempt to delay it with artificial borders (tariffs, export bans, &c.), we're just delaying the inevitable and making a (commercial) enemy for no reason

myrmidon 1y ago
> In 50 years there will be literally nothing left that China doesn't do better than the west This is not at all obvious or inevitable. The exact same concerns where voiced when much of the electronics industry moved to Japan 30 years ago, but "Japan doing everything better than the west" never really happened. China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  China is facing the exact same challenges that made US, EU, Japanese and Korean industry stumble before: Your own success raises wages and living standards, which inevitably decreases competitiveness. China still has a lot of catching up to do (in living standards/median income) and despite that it already struggles in some sectors to compete with countries like Vietnam or Indonesia. And that's totally fine to Chinese people. They don't want to work in a factory forever. They too, would like cushy office jobs.

Luker88 1y ago

More shortsighted than crazy, imho. EU tried that with Russia, then we were dependent on oil/gas, and somehow the dictatorial regime fscked us on Ukraine, and now all of us are wasting so much more time and money. Everybody already knows China is going to invade Taiwan. The global chip market is not going to like that, and this will happen only because we played the good guy with a dictator. And then all of this will be retroactively be seen as aiding and collaborating with evil, again. "Curse your sudden and inevitable betrayal", again and again.

saubeidl 1y ago
Why does Europe need to care about Taiwan? Ukraine I get, it's a security concern for us. But some island far away with a tenuous independence claim?
- Luker88 1y ago
  Ah, to be young and new here. TSMC (taiwan) is the only company that has reached the latest and greatest chips tech. Apple gets their chips from Taiwan only. AMD. Intel. Everyone. Taiwan does not let TSMC export the latest tech, exactly because they would lose USA protection. ...basically it's a 160B$ industry with something like 70% of the global output, as per last year data. Now imagine Taiwan blowing up the industry to prevent China from controlling it, or China destroying the industry to crash the global economy, weaken the USA protection and come back a few years later. China will not be affected much by the sudden non-existence of Taiwan Chip industry. They produce everything internally. The rest of the world would be thrown 5+ years back in terms of tech, and I don't even want to know how much it will take to ramp up older production elsewhere. Remember the problems caused by Covid, where the car industry had problems getting chips? That was a mere shift in who gets the chips first, the production was still there. 70% less global chip production? Buy a cars/computers/whatever as soon as China invades, it's going to last you for a while.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    This still sounds like a problem caused by the US that should be for the US to worry about.

constantcrying 1y ago

>Let China sell tens of billions of affordable EVs to Europe. The German economy can not survive that. There is no "mutual benefit" when what you are doing is an existential risk to the other side.

aurareturn 1y ago
Yea but French and Netherlands economy will be great. German car companies will get a kick in competition and make better cars. Consumers win.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  The German car industry will not survive and Germany, together with the EU will go through a major economic crisis. That the Netherlands adds 500 jobs making EUV machines is a tiny consolation for mass unemployment in Germany, Italy, the Czech Republic, Hungary and France with millions of jobs lost. Again, free trade is an insane idea when the proposition of one side is an existential threat to the other side.
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? It goes both ways as well. German cars are already suffering in China as tariff retaliation.
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      >So close the market, shield yourself from competition, and forever make inferior cars? Certainly the preferable alternative.