4 ms·

how did their feet vote? The last time (and current time) a president was in power that I didn't agree with (and didn't vote for), I left. As a citizen, I can'

by itake 1y ago

how did their feet vote? The last time (and current time) a president was in power that I didn't agree with (and didn't vote for), I left. As a citizen, I can't fully escape taxes, but I will be my darnedest to reduce my taxable burden when I don't approve of the government.

pessimizer 1y ago
So being an elite who escapes the consequences of what elites have done is a virtue that should be rewarded? Why would people look up to a runner? Most people don't have anywhere else to go, and love where they're from.
- itake 1y ago
  The USA is full of people that left their home country with nothing because they disagreed with how their home country is managed. For example, the Vietnamese boat people. I hardly consider that cohort of immigrants 'elite'. Taiwan is another example. Taiwan wouldn't exist if it wasn't for mainlanders voting with their feet. > love where they're from yes. that is the problem...
  - orphea 1y ago
    > yes. that is the problem... Is the concept of opposing the government but loving the country (aka people, culture, nature, cuisine) alien for you?
  - komali2 1y ago
    > Taiwan wouldn't exist if it wasn't for mainlanders voting with their feet. Woah, woah, the ROC invaded Taiwan with a huge group of armed settler-colonialists, and then initiated a violent martial law on everyone here. The KMT settlers didn't vote with their feet, they imperialised Taiwan and the people here. Taiwan would absolutely exist either way, there would probably have been democracy here a lot sooner if not for the KMT's martial law, since the common thread throughout all 6 decades of their rule, it was non-KMT people (earlier immigrants, indigenous people, and even a few Japanese descendants) that led opposition efforts. Not to mention much of the reason the PRC makes imperialist claims against Taiwan is because of their humiliation that they failed to defeat the KMT utterly, and this country retained the name ROC when it transitioned to democracy in the 90's - the best the opposition could achieve in the face of KMT power. Really Taiwan makes the opposite case because after the cultural revolution, which is before the beginning of Taiwanese democracy, Taiwanese people could have gone to the PRC and had life there, fleeing martial law, but instead people stayed and worked to overthrow the KMT. I personally believe packing your shit and heading out is a totally valid action in the face of oppression and fascism, that's why I left the USA after all. I don't think I agree that everyone has a responsibility to risk their lives to overthrow oppressive leaders, the reason I wouldn't stick around though is I won't accept the moral risk of accidentally supporting the regime, which is why for example I don't pay USA taxes anymore.
- BeFlatXIII 1y ago
  > elite who escapes the consequences of what elites have done Goomba fallacy.
johncolanduoni 1y ago
Some of the nations that are sanctioned by the US etc. literally do not let most their citizens leave. Citizens of all of them will have difficulty getting visas due to the poor relations that resulted in sanctions in the first place. On top of that, even if there are no political barriers not everyone will have the means to do so. I’m also curious at what point you assign culpability for remaining in a country. Obviously, a baby born in the country can’t be culpable or the concept becomes meaningless. At what age or level of maturity can we start to condemn someone for not noticing that their government is evil and then leaving their family to escape?
nialv7 1y ago
What an incredibly out of touch and privileged thing to say...
BeFlatXIII 1y ago
Internet tough guys are out in full force today.
kelnos 1y ago
Being able to move to a different country when you don't like your government is a very privileged thing that most people can't reasonably do. And even for people with the means to do so, I personally think that's too much to ask.

by itake 1y ago

pessimizer 1y ago

So being an elite who escapes the consequences of what elites have done is a virtue that should be rewarded? Why would people look up to a runner? Most people don't have anywhere else to go, and love where they're from.

itake 1y ago
The USA is full of people that left their home country with nothing because they disagreed with how their home country is managed. For example, the Vietnamese boat people. I hardly consider that cohort of immigrants 'elite'. Taiwan is another example. Taiwan wouldn't exist if it wasn't for mainlanders voting with their feet. > love where they're from yes. that is the problem...
- orphea 1y ago
  > yes. that is the problem... Is the concept of opposing the government but loving the country (aka people, culture, nature, cuisine) alien for you?
- komali2 1y ago
  > Taiwan wouldn't exist if it wasn't for mainlanders voting with their feet. Woah, woah, the ROC invaded Taiwan with a huge group of armed settler-colonialists, and then initiated a violent martial law on everyone here. The KMT settlers didn't vote with their feet, they imperialised Taiwan and the people here. Taiwan would absolutely exist either way, there would probably have been democracy here a lot sooner if not for the KMT's martial law, since the common thread throughout all 6 decades of their rule, it was non-KMT people (earlier immigrants, indigenous people, and even a few Japanese descendants) that led opposition efforts. Not to mention much of the reason the PRC makes imperialist claims against Taiwan is because of their humiliation that they failed to defeat the KMT utterly, and this country retained the name ROC when it transitioned to democracy in the 90's - the best the opposition could achieve in the face of KMT power. Really Taiwan makes the opposite case because after the cultural revolution, which is before the beginning of Taiwanese democracy, Taiwanese people could have gone to the PRC and had life there, fleeing martial law, but instead people stayed and worked to overthrow the KMT. I personally believe packing your shit and heading out is a totally valid action in the face of oppression and fascism, that's why I left the USA after all. I don't think I agree that everyone has a responsibility to risk their lives to overthrow oppressive leaders, the reason I wouldn't stick around though is I won't accept the moral risk of accidentally supporting the regime, which is why for example I don't pay USA taxes anymore.
BeFlatXIII 1y ago
> elite who escapes the consequences of what elites have done Goomba fallacy.

johncolanduoni 1y ago

Some of the nations that are sanctioned by the US etc. literally do not let most their citizens leave. Citizens of all of them will have difficulty getting visas due to the poor relations that resulted in sanctions in the first place. On top of that, even if there are no political barriers not everyone will have the means to do so. I’m also curious at what point you assign culpability for remaining in a country. Obviously, a baby born in the country can’t be culpable or the concept becomes meaningless. At what age or level of maturity can we start to condemn someone for not noticing that their government is evil and then leaving their family to escape?

nialv7 1y ago

What an incredibly out of touch and privileged thing to say...

BeFlatXIII 1y ago

Internet tough guys are out in full force today.

kelnos 1y ago

Being able to move to a different country when you don't like your government is a very privileged thing that most people can't reasonably do. And even for people with the means to do so, I personally think that's too much to ask.