5 ms·

People always say stuff like this, but from my pov it doesn't matter what the populace thinks. They are directly supporting their government with everything the

by sfn42 1y ago

People always say stuff like this, but from my pov it doesn't matter what the populace thinks. They are directly supporting their government with everything they do. They are producing goods and services, they are the army, they are the government, the people are the country. They have the power to choose who rules them if they want to. Nobody else does. Iranians are responsible for Iran's actions just like Russians are responsible for Russia's actions and Americans are responsible for America's actions.

4gotunameagain 1y ago
What should they do ? Stop working, or protest and risk getting killed ? It's easy to call for action from your comfortable life. No, the populace does not bear the same responsibility for the country's actions in all countries. Swiss with direct democracy bear much higher responsibility than systematically oppressed populace in other countries.
- mvdtnz 1y ago
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  - deleted 1y ago
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  - plumb_bob_00 1y ago
    > It's because they support the regime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests > The protests were described as "unlike any the country had seen before", the "biggest challenge" to the government, and "most widespread revolt", since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. > ... > Although the protests have not been as deadly as those in 2019 (when more than 1,500 were killed), they have been "nationwide, spread across social classes, universities, the streets [and] schools". At least 551 people, including 68 minors, had been killed as a result of the government's intervention in the protests, as of 15 September 2023. Before February 2023 when most were pardoned, an estimated 19,262 were arrested across at least 134 cities and towns and 132 universities. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34346192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34346192 > Tell HN: Farewell letter of M. Hosseini – executed 01.02.2023 by I.R. of Iran > ... > In the dawn of tomorrow, at the foot of the gallows, I will look up to the sky for the last time, see the last star and cry out with all my strength, "Woman, life, freedom". I will cry out in the name of justice and in the hope of a world without violence, a world that loves nature and that is safe for all the children of the world.
- sfn42 1y ago
  Well ideally they should peacefully replace the government with one that aligns with the people's alleged views. Failing that, I don't know. I guess they'll have to figure it out as they go. All I'm saying is it's their country, their responsibility. And for example in the case of Russia there's clearly widespread support for Putin and his war so I'm not really expecting nor calling for them to do anything about it. I'm just saying I hold them responsible and I think the rest of the world should too. A leader is nothing without followers.
  - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
    > they should peacefully replace the government This screams privilege. I wish you never experience oppression, but please try to understand you privilege.
    - sfn42 1y ago
      You're clearly not being very charitable in your interpretation of things I say so I'm just going to end the conversation here because I'm not interested in endlessly clarifying basic things like what I mean when I say "Ideally". Obviously I'm not suggesting that it's easy or even possible. Though I also don't think we can completely rule out the possibility of a peaceful revolution. Stranger things have happened. And it certainly would be better than a violent one. Anyway have a nice day
      - kelnos 1y ago
        > You're clearly not being very charitable in your interpretation of things I say so I'm just going to end the conversation here because I'm not interested in endlessly clarifying basic things like what I mean when I say "Ideally". I agree that the person you're replying to is getting a bit testy, but I think it's a bit justified, as you're being a bit obtuse here. "Ideally" is irrelevant. We're not talking about ideal cases in these threads, so to bring up that word feels disingenuous. Yes, ideally people in a country where their government is doing bad things can peacefully replace their government with another one that won't do bad things. But in practice, where in the world does that actually exist? Basically nowhere? So what's the point in bringing it up? > Though I also don't think we can completely rule out the possibility of a peaceful revolution. That's a bunch of weasel-word language. Sure, you can't "completely" rule out anything. But for most (all?) of the places under discussion, there's something like a 0.001% chance of that happening, which is far below the threshold of not even bothering to bring up the possibility.
tgma 1y ago
This is an extremely important, often overlooked, point. I also know of many "educated Iranians" living in the US who voice their opinion as GP suggests, and are self-proclaimed to be anti-regime. However, they travel to Iran to visit family and friends twice a year and take an iPhone or two on their way to gift them, directly benefiting the Mullah's system. I don't think a jew would have gone back to Nazi Germany to visit family, so I would take "hate the government" with a grain of salt when everything you do benefits the same establishment. Some even line up to vote for sham Presidential elections of the Mullah regime, whose turnout legitimizes the regime, while inside the United States! Being Stanford educated does not prevent this seemingly cognitive dissonance or perhaps deception; it actually makes that more likely.
- lukan 1y ago
  "I don't think a jew would have gone back to Nazi Germany to visit family" Then I recommend some history books. Family ties can be strong and the persecution of the jews was not always as violent and open as it was during the war. It was more systematic discrimination in the beginning, so of course people still travelled back and forth. Uprooting a whole family is not a simple thing. "Some even line up to vote for sham Presidential elections of the Mullah regime" What else they are supposed to do? That is a small option of influence and they use it. You think the Mullahs would loose their power if people just would not vote for them? If that would be true, they would be a democracy.
  - tgma 1y ago
    > If that would be true, they would be a democracy. I am positing perhaps they are a democracy. Many of the "educated people" in question that the GP suggests "hate" the government, may say so but their actions nevertheless are directly and indirectly benefiting the Mullahs. Democracy does not mean good, or effective, or not evil. It might be a collective compromise towards mediocrity and stagnation.
    - lukan 1y ago
      "I am positing perhaps they are a democracy." Then maybe take a closer look into how their system works. Every candidate has to be approved by the Mullah's. So the Mullah's are effectivly in control. Still, there are differences with the candidates. Would I vote under such conditions? No idea, I am struggle to find a party representing my views and I am in a western democracy.
nemothekid 1y ago
This is a historically ignorant take, especially when you consider the country being talked about is Iran. As an American it's very easy to assume that a "government revolution" is something that can executed by the will of the people. Iran had a democratic government. That democratic government voted to do something against Britian's economic interests. In response America dissolved it's government. If I lived in a nation where any government instability would be used by wealth foreign powers who didn't care if I lived or died, I would also be hesitant in brewing any anti-government fervor. You can't hold them wholly responsible when they don't even have the power of true self determination.
- sfn42 1y ago
  We all have history. It's not long ago that a lot of us Europeans did some pretty messed up stuff. We got over it and now we're all holding hands and such. Except for the damn Russians of course, because we can't just be friends and have nice things, someone has to ruin it for everyone. I don't care what your history is. I care what you're doing now, and if what you're doing now is killing people over 80 year old beef (or anything else really) then I have absolutely no respect for you nor your history. Get over it, move forward. War should be a thing of the past at this point, we all share one planet.
  - nemothekid 1y ago
    >Get over it, move forward. I'm not sure how Iranian's are supposed to "get over" the fact that America wants middle-east hegemony. My point is exactly that: You wish the blame the Iranians for the problems with their government, but the underlying problems with their government is because _Americans_ can't stop electing war hawks. The only sin Iranians have comitted in the eyes of the west is being born on top of an oil field. The "beef" might be 80 years old, but the oil is there today and America wants it's cut. Iran didn't want sell their oil to the British while their own people starved and for that they've been a quagmire for 80 years. You are asking them to live as slaves in the name of peace. Would you tell Ukrainians that they are at fault for the war?
    - 1y ago
kelnos 1y ago
Actually, the US is responsible for Iran's actions. We're the ones who meddled in their government and pushed them to the point they're at today. Regardless, it's laughable to think that regular Iranian citizens are just as responsible for their theocratic dictatorship as Americans are for the US's (crumbling) representative democracy. Those two things are not the same at all. Your average Iranian has zero influence over what the Iranian government does. The average American... put Trump in office, either by voting for him or by abstaining.
- sfn42 1y ago
  So if your grandfather killed my great great aunt and I used that as justification for killing your niece, it would be your fault your niece is dead. Got it.

by sfn42 1y ago

4gotunameagain 1y ago

What should they do ? Stop working, or protest and risk getting killed ? It's easy to call for action from your comfortable life. No, the populace does not bear the same responsibility for the country's actions in all countries. Swiss with direct democracy bear much higher responsibility than systematically oppressed populace in other countries.

mvdtnz 1y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- plumb_bob_00 1y ago
  > It's because they support the regime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahsa_Amini_protests > The protests were described as "unlike any the country had seen before", the "biggest challenge" to the government, and "most widespread revolt", since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. > ... > Although the protests have not been as deadly as those in 2019 (when more than 1,500 were killed), they have been "nationwide, spread across social classes, universities, the streets [and] schools". At least 551 people, including 68 minors, had been killed as a result of the government's intervention in the protests, as of 15 September 2023. Before February 2023 when most were pardoned, an estimated 19,262 were arrested across at least 134 cities and towns and 132 universities. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34346192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34346192 > Tell HN: Farewell letter of M. Hosseini – executed 01.02.2023 by I.R. of Iran > ... > In the dawn of tomorrow, at the foot of the gallows, I will look up to the sky for the last time, see the last star and cry out with all my strength, "Woman, life, freedom". I will cry out in the name of justice and in the hope of a world without violence, a world that loves nature and that is safe for all the children of the world.
sfn42 1y ago
Well ideally they should peacefully replace the government with one that aligns with the people's alleged views. Failing that, I don't know. I guess they'll have to figure it out as they go. All I'm saying is it's their country, their responsibility. And for example in the case of Russia there's clearly widespread support for Putin and his war so I'm not really expecting nor calling for them to do anything about it. I'm just saying I hold them responsible and I think the rest of the world should too. A leader is nothing without followers.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago
  > they should peacefully replace the government This screams privilege. I wish you never experience oppression, but please try to understand you privilege.
  - sfn42 1y ago
    You're clearly not being very charitable in your interpretation of things I say so I'm just going to end the conversation here because I'm not interested in endlessly clarifying basic things like what I mean when I say "Ideally". Obviously I'm not suggesting that it's easy or even possible. Though I also don't think we can completely rule out the possibility of a peaceful revolution. Stranger things have happened. And it certainly would be better than a violent one. Anyway have a nice day
    - kelnos 1y ago
      > You're clearly not being very charitable in your interpretation of things I say so I'm just going to end the conversation here because I'm not interested in endlessly clarifying basic things like what I mean when I say "Ideally". I agree that the person you're replying to is getting a bit testy, but I think it's a bit justified, as you're being a bit obtuse here. "Ideally" is irrelevant. We're not talking about ideal cases in these threads, so to bring up that word feels disingenuous. Yes, ideally people in a country where their government is doing bad things can peacefully replace their government with another one that won't do bad things. But in practice, where in the world does that actually exist? Basically nowhere? So what's the point in bringing it up? > Though I also don't think we can completely rule out the possibility of a peaceful revolution. That's a bunch of weasel-word language. Sure, you can't "completely" rule out anything. But for most (all?) of the places under discussion, there's something like a 0.001% chance of that happening, which is far below the threshold of not even bothering to bring up the possibility.

tgma 1y ago

This is an extremely important, often overlooked, point. I also know of many "educated Iranians" living in the US who voice their opinion as GP suggests, and are self-proclaimed to be anti-regime. However, they travel to Iran to visit family and friends twice a year and take an iPhone or two on their way to gift them, directly benefiting the Mullah's system. I don't think a jew would have gone back to Nazi Germany to visit family, so I would take "hate the government" with a grain of salt when everything you do benefits the same establishment. Some even line up to vote for sham Presidential elections of the Mullah regime, whose turnout legitimizes the regime, while inside the United States! Being Stanford educated does not prevent this seemingly cognitive dissonance or perhaps deception; it actually makes that more likely.

lukan 1y ago
"I don't think a jew would have gone back to Nazi Germany to visit family" Then I recommend some history books. Family ties can be strong and the persecution of the jews was not always as violent and open as it was during the war. It was more systematic discrimination in the beginning, so of course people still travelled back and forth. Uprooting a whole family is not a simple thing. "Some even line up to vote for sham Presidential elections of the Mullah regime" What else they are supposed to do? That is a small option of influence and they use it. You think the Mullahs would loose their power if people just would not vote for them? If that would be true, they would be a democracy.
- tgma 1y ago
  > If that would be true, they would be a democracy. I am positing perhaps they are a democracy. Many of the "educated people" in question that the GP suggests "hate" the government, may say so but their actions nevertheless are directly and indirectly benefiting the Mullahs. Democracy does not mean good, or effective, or not evil. It might be a collective compromise towards mediocrity and stagnation.
  - lukan 1y ago
    "I am positing perhaps they are a democracy." Then maybe take a closer look into how their system works. Every candidate has to be approved by the Mullah's. So the Mullah's are effectivly in control. Still, there are differences with the candidates. Would I vote under such conditions? No idea, I am struggle to find a party representing my views and I am in a western democracy.

nemothekid 1y ago

This is a historically ignorant take, especially when you consider the country being talked about is Iran. As an American it's very easy to assume that a "government revolution" is something that can executed by the will of the people. Iran had a democratic government. That democratic government voted to do something against Britian's economic interests. In response America dissolved it's government. If I lived in a nation where any government instability would be used by wealth foreign powers who didn't care if I lived or died, I would also be hesitant in brewing any anti-government fervor. You can't hold them wholly responsible when they don't even have the power of true self determination.

sfn42 1y ago
We all have history. It's not long ago that a lot of us Europeans did some pretty messed up stuff. We got over it and now we're all holding hands and such. Except for the damn Russians of course, because we can't just be friends and have nice things, someone has to ruin it for everyone. I don't care what your history is. I care what you're doing now, and if what you're doing now is killing people over 80 year old beef (or anything else really) then I have absolutely no respect for you nor your history. Get over it, move forward. War should be a thing of the past at this point, we all share one planet.
- nemothekid 1y ago
  >Get over it, move forward. I'm not sure how Iranian's are supposed to "get over" the fact that America wants middle-east hegemony. My point is exactly that: You wish the blame the Iranians for the problems with their government, but the underlying problems with their government is because _Americans_ can't stop electing war hawks. The only sin Iranians have comitted in the eyes of the west is being born on top of an oil field. The "beef" might be 80 years old, but the oil is there today and America wants it's cut. Iran didn't want sell their oil to the British while their own people starved and for that they've been a quagmire for 80 years. You are asking them to live as slaves in the name of peace. Would you tell Ukrainians that they are at fault for the war?
  - 1y ago

kelnos 1y ago

Actually, the US is responsible for Iran's actions. We're the ones who meddled in their government and pushed them to the point they're at today. Regardless, it's laughable to think that regular Iranian citizens are just as responsible for their theocratic dictatorship as Americans are for the US's (crumbling) representative democracy. Those two things are not the same at all. Your average Iranian has zero influence over what the Iranian government does. The average American... put Trump in office, either by voting for him or by abstaining.

sfn42 1y ago
So if your grandfather killed my great great aunt and I used that as justification for killing your niece, it would be your fault your niece is dead. Got it.