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If you want rehabilitation then you should ensure that they're working for more than slave wages and that money is set aside to be available to them upon their

If you want rehabilitation then you should ensure that they're working for more than slave wages and that money is set aside to be available to them upon their release. Ensuring they can communicate with their families at no charge would be a huge plus as well.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
Do we have high-quality studies on what facilitates rehabilitation?
- Teever 1y ago
  I would imagine that the best data comes from places that have the highest rates of rehabilitation and lowest rates of re-offending. As usual the Nordic countries seem to have this stuff figured out.[0] https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid%3A42e604d8-31d0-4067-a08c-fd1fa0065946/files/r5h73pw95k https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid%3A42e604d8-31d0-4067-a08c-...
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > As usual the Nordic countries seem to have this stuff figured out Agree, but do we have experiments trying Nordic models in America to see what aspects of their model work here (and which may not)?
    - crooked-v 1y ago
      No. Also, if you try, conservative voters will call you evil and/or sinful for being nice to people.
    - mitchbob 1y ago
      Here's one, in Pennsylvania: https://www.science.org/content/article/how-will-little-scandinavia-experiment-play-out-u-s-prisons https://www.science.org/content/article/how-will-little-scan... Sounds like Oregon started but hasn't gotten very far: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2023/08/425946/how-norway-helping-restore-humanity-inside-us-prisons https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2023/08/425946/how-norway-helping-...
    - jacobr1 1y ago
      On a related note, we have a bunch of replication failures in education for selection effects reasons. It turns if you have a highly motivated staff and engaged parents - pretty much every flavor of educational approach has a positive impact. When you try the same thing with an overworked and demotivated staff, unengaged parents, and with non-selective student populations that have behavior issues or other concerns ... most methods fall apart. And some of the approaches might even work, presuming similar conditions. Getting policy right under adversarial conditions is really hard - even harder than the already hard problem of identifying and testing good policy.
  - simonsarris 1y ago
    I imagine Norwegian-American recidivism rates are comparable to Norwegian rates. Just like Swedish-American homelessness rates are comparable to homelessness rates in Sweden, etc.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Just like Swedish-American homelessness rates are comparable to homelessness rates in Sweden ...are they? (Serious question.) (Note: "There was no significant difference in rates of lifetime adult homelessness between foreign-born adults and native-born adults (1.0% vs 1.7%). Foreign-born participants were less likely to have various mental and substance-use disorders, less likely to receive welfare, and less likely to have any lifetime incarceration. The number of years foreign-born adults lived in the United States was significantly associated with risk for homelessness" [1]) [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0033350618304098?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00333...
  - overrun11 1y ago
    Is there any evidence that Nordic countries have higher rates of rehabilitation? The original assertions were based on terrible data: Norway has a recidivism rate of 20% because it only counts convictions in the following 2 years whereas the US counts any arrest in the following 5.
    - taurath 1y ago
      Scandinavian countries have prison populations in the thousands (1000) and the USA has a prison population in the millions (1000000). The USA has an incarceration rate 10 times that of any Scandinavian country. Recidivism rates might be similar, but I'm certain the fact that so many fewer end up in prison means something important about the USA
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    Nordic societies and people are very different than what you'll find in the USA. I'd be curious to see how a US-like prison system would fare in Sweden, with Swedish (native) prisoners. Probably quite well.
- gdbsjjdn 1y ago
  What we're currently doing is creating a permanent underclass of "criminals" who are viewed as subhuman and used as political fodder. The status quo benefits wealthy people by providing cheap labour and a convenient scapegoat. People who have been incarcerated are impoverished and cut off from careers and social lives, so they can't function outside of prison. There's lots of evidence that maintaining connection to family, and providing skills training reduces recidivism. You should be asking for studies proving that what we're currently doing is effective or humane.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 1y ago
    Do we have conclusive evidence that causality isn’t actually reversed here in a large percentage of cases? As in, a certain % of the population is, very unfortunately and not of their own volition, born with innate antisocial traits. They just happened to roll a 1 at birth on many attributes at once, and are stuck with it for life. Assuming humans are not a blank slate, many said humans will not be re-trainable to be pro-social. They will cause mayhem and misery to those around them unless isolated, humanely, with dignity and compassion, from the rest of society. Given a large enough of a denominator, that’s potentially millions of people. And fair point around social ties being important here, I wonder what percentage of imprisonment that would prevent.
    - amiga386 1y ago
      Recent metaanalysis of intervention effectiveness (2025, UK) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/680101e3da5bb2fc4a681fcb/Final_PDF_Reducing_Reoffending_-_Evidence_Synthesis.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/680101e3da5bb... In short: humans are not inherently good 'uns or bad 'uns. The social interventions made by friends, families, community, state-run programs, have a discernable effect on reoffending rates.
      - nomel 1y ago
        “Discernible effect” doesn’t really refute their point, it affirms it. Some aren’t responsive to any of that. I think it’s logical that you’re both right, with the disagreement being in the ratio. If you honestly think all humans are born equal, I suggest visiting a mental ward, or more relevant here, watching some interviews/analysis of mass murderers. There’s a well accepted, by the medical field, by objective metrics, spectrum of self control, awareness, autonomy, and intelligence, expressed in humans. We’re not all the same. You typing here suggests you’re on the relatively extreme end of the “genetic luck” spectrum.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

Do we have high-quality studies on what facilitates rehabilitation?

Teever 1y ago
I would imagine that the best data comes from places that have the highest rates of rehabilitation and lowest rates of re-offending. As usual the Nordic countries seem to have this stuff figured out.[0] https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid%3A42e604d8-31d0-4067-a08c-fd1fa0065946/files/r5h73pw95k https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid%3A42e604d8-31d0-4067-a08c-...
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > As usual the Nordic countries seem to have this stuff figured out Agree, but do we have experiments trying Nordic models in America to see what aspects of their model work here (and which may not)?
  - crooked-v 1y ago
    No. Also, if you try, conservative voters will call you evil and/or sinful for being nice to people.
  - mitchbob 1y ago
    Here's one, in Pennsylvania: https://www.science.org/content/article/how-will-little-scandinavia-experiment-play-out-u-s-prisons https://www.science.org/content/article/how-will-little-scan... Sounds like Oregon started but hasn't gotten very far: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2023/08/425946/how-norway-helping-restore-humanity-inside-us-prisons https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2023/08/425946/how-norway-helping-...
  - jacobr1 1y ago
    On a related note, we have a bunch of replication failures in education for selection effects reasons. It turns if you have a highly motivated staff and engaged parents - pretty much every flavor of educational approach has a positive impact. When you try the same thing with an overworked and demotivated staff, unengaged parents, and with non-selective student populations that have behavior issues or other concerns ... most methods fall apart. And some of the approaches might even work, presuming similar conditions. Getting policy right under adversarial conditions is really hard - even harder than the already hard problem of identifying and testing good policy.
- simonsarris 1y ago
  I imagine Norwegian-American recidivism rates are comparable to Norwegian rates. Just like Swedish-American homelessness rates are comparable to homelessness rates in Sweden, etc.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Just like Swedish-American homelessness rates are comparable to homelessness rates in Sweden ...are they? (Serious question.) (Note: "There was no significant difference in rates of lifetime adult homelessness between foreign-born adults and native-born adults (1.0% vs 1.7%). Foreign-born participants were less likely to have various mental and substance-use disorders, less likely to receive welfare, and less likely to have any lifetime incarceration. The number of years foreign-born adults lived in the United States was significantly associated with risk for homelessness" [1]) [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0033350618304098?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00333...
- overrun11 1y ago
  Is there any evidence that Nordic countries have higher rates of rehabilitation? The original assertions were based on terrible data: Norway has a recidivism rate of 20% because it only counts convictions in the following 2 years whereas the US counts any arrest in the following 5.
  - taurath 1y ago
    Scandinavian countries have prison populations in the thousands (1000) and the USA has a prison population in the millions (1000000). The USA has an incarceration rate 10 times that of any Scandinavian country. Recidivism rates might be similar, but I'm certain the fact that so many fewer end up in prison means something important about the USA
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Nordic societies and people are very different than what you'll find in the USA. I'd be curious to see how a US-like prison system would fare in Sweden, with Swedish (native) prisoners. Probably quite well.
gdbsjjdn 1y ago
What we're currently doing is creating a permanent underclass of "criminals" who are viewed as subhuman and used as political fodder. The status quo benefits wealthy people by providing cheap labour and a convenient scapegoat. People who have been incarcerated are impoverished and cut off from careers and social lives, so they can't function outside of prison. There's lots of evidence that maintaining connection to family, and providing skills training reduces recidivism. You should be asking for studies proving that what we're currently doing is effective or humane.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 1y ago
  Do we have conclusive evidence that causality isn’t actually reversed here in a large percentage of cases? As in, a certain % of the population is, very unfortunately and not of their own volition, born with innate antisocial traits. They just happened to roll a 1 at birth on many attributes at once, and are stuck with it for life. Assuming humans are not a blank slate, many said humans will not be re-trainable to be pro-social. They will cause mayhem and misery to those around them unless isolated, humanely, with dignity and compassion, from the rest of society. Given a large enough of a denominator, that’s potentially millions of people. And fair point around social ties being important here, I wonder what percentage of imprisonment that would prevent.
  - amiga386 1y ago
    Recent metaanalysis of intervention effectiveness (2025, UK) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/680101e3da5bb2fc4a681fcb/Final_PDF_Reducing_Reoffending_-_Evidence_Synthesis.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/680101e3da5bb... In short: humans are not inherently good 'uns or bad 'uns. The social interventions made by friends, families, community, state-run programs, have a discernable effect on reoffending rates.
    - nomel 1y ago
      “Discernible effect” doesn’t really refute their point, it affirms it. Some aren’t responsive to any of that. I think it’s logical that you’re both right, with the disagreement being in the ratio. If you honestly think all humans are born equal, I suggest visiting a mental ward, or more relevant here, watching some interviews/analysis of mass murderers. There’s a well accepted, by the medical field, by objective metrics, spectrum of self control, awareness, autonomy, and intelligence, expressed in humans. We’re not all the same. You typing here suggests you’re on the relatively extreme end of the “genetic luck” spectrum.