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ignore this advice. spend plenty of time studying data structures and algorithms as well as computer architecture. these are actually difficult things that tak

ignore this advice. spend plenty of time studying data structures and algorithms as well as computer architecture. these are actually difficult things that take a long time to understand and will have a positive impact on your career. study the underlying disciplines of your preferred domain. in general, focus on more fundamental things and limit the amount of time you spend on stupid shit like frameworks, build systems, quirks of an editor or a programming language. all these things will find a way to steal your time _anyway_, and your time is extremely precious. "testing" is not fundamental. there is no real skill to be learned there, it's just one of those things that will find a way to steal your time anyway so there is no point in focusing actively on it. put it that way: you will NEVER get the extra time to study fundamental theory. you will ALWAYS be forced to spend time to write tests. if you somehow find the time, spend it on things that are worth it.

KevinMS 1y ago
> "testing" is not fundamental. there is no real skill to be learned there, it's just one of those things that will find a way to steal your time anyway so there is no point in focusing actively on it. that's an edgy take and a red flag
- nice_byte 1y ago
  it is not edgy whatsoever. it reflects the actual reality on the ground. nobody goes to school to learn how to use git or how to write unit tests. it's not something that needs to be actively "learned", you'll just absorb it eventually because you can't escape it. The more interesting and important things you will never "just absorb", you actually have to make a conscious effort to engage with them.
  - KevinMS 1y ago
    I'm replying to statements like this > "testing" is not fundamental. and > there is no real skill to be learned there one of the biggest problems that has plagued software is failed projects. There have been a lot of them, and its probably costs hundreds of billions of dollars. I can guarantee not one of those projects failed because somebody had to take the time to look up the best data structure. But I'll bet a lot of them failed because they didn't follow smart testing practices and collapsed under their own weight of complexity, untestability and inflexibility.
    - nice_byte 1y ago
      Citation needed. I've seen projects fail for a multitude of reasons, by far the most common are boring political ones, like the leadership not understanding what it is that they want to build. Hiring people who think bloom filters are "exotic" to work on a distributed system could certainly doom that project to failure regardless of how diligently tested it is. I assure you that if you have enough competence to actually go through with designing and building a thing, you certainly have more than enough competence to test it. It is not a fundamental discipline that needs to be studied, much less at the expense of fundamental knowledge. Edit: to reframe it a bit differently: you can always add more tests. you can't fix the problems you don't even know you have due to lack of thorough understanding of the problem domain.
      - KevinMS 1y ago
        > Citation needed. [7 Software Failures Due To Lack Of Testing That Rocked The World](https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack-of-testing https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack...) > Hiring people who think bloom filters are "exotic" to work on a distributed system could certainly doom that project to failure regardless of how diligently tested it is. Citation needed. > Edit: to reframe it a bit differently: you can always add more tests. you can't fix the problems you don't even know you have due to lack of thorough understanding of the problem domain. The problem domain is never the data structure or algorithm.
        nice_byte 1y ago
        > [7 Software Failures Due To Lack Of Testing That Rocked The World](https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack...) Do you really think you can prove your point by showing me some sloplist of mildly high profile bugs? All these systems had extensive test suites and yet these problems happened anyway. Bugs happen in extensively tested systems literally all the time, but by your own logic, any bug is "due to lack of testing". That's an unproductive line of reasoning because it is not possible or practical to test for every possible eventuality. This is why fields like formal verification exist. >> Hiring people who think bloom filters are "exotic" to work on a distributed system could certainly doom that project to failure regardless of how diligently tested it is. > Citation needed. ever tried to build a distributed cache?? > The problem domain is never the data structure or algorithm. The problem domain is literally always that. The way your data is organized and the way you work with it is directly affected by the exact problem you are solving.
blind_tomato 1y ago
I'll ignore your advice. It's one-sided and misleading, lacking the nuances the OP had.
- nice_byte 1y ago
  feel free to. it's your career and your own precious time.

KevinMS 1y ago

> "testing" is not fundamental. there is no real skill to be learned there, it's just one of those things that will find a way to steal your time anyway so there is no point in focusing actively on it. that's an edgy take and a red flag

nice_byte 1y ago
it is not edgy whatsoever. it reflects the actual reality on the ground. nobody goes to school to learn how to use git or how to write unit tests. it's not something that needs to be actively "learned", you'll just absorb it eventually because you can't escape it. The more interesting and important things you will never "just absorb", you actually have to make a conscious effort to engage with them.
- KevinMS 1y ago
  I'm replying to statements like this > "testing" is not fundamental. and > there is no real skill to be learned there one of the biggest problems that has plagued software is failed projects. There have been a lot of them, and its probably costs hundreds of billions of dollars. I can guarantee not one of those projects failed because somebody had to take the time to look up the best data structure. But I'll bet a lot of them failed because they didn't follow smart testing practices and collapsed under their own weight of complexity, untestability and inflexibility.
  - nice_byte 1y ago
    Citation needed. I've seen projects fail for a multitude of reasons, by far the most common are boring political ones, like the leadership not understanding what it is that they want to build. Hiring people who think bloom filters are "exotic" to work on a distributed system could certainly doom that project to failure regardless of how diligently tested it is. I assure you that if you have enough competence to actually go through with designing and building a thing, you certainly have more than enough competence to test it. It is not a fundamental discipline that needs to be studied, much less at the expense of fundamental knowledge. Edit: to reframe it a bit differently: you can always add more tests. you can't fix the problems you don't even know you have due to lack of thorough understanding of the problem domain.
    - KevinMS 1y ago
      > Citation needed. [7 Software Failures Due To Lack Of Testing That Rocked The World](https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack-of-testing https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack...) > Hiring people who think bloom filters are "exotic" to work on a distributed system could certainly doom that project to failure regardless of how diligently tested it is. Citation needed. > Edit: to reframe it a bit differently: you can always add more tests. you can't fix the problems you don't even know you have due to lack of thorough understanding of the problem domain. The problem domain is never the data structure or algorithm.
      - nice_byte 1y ago
        > [7 Software Failures Due To Lack Of Testing That Rocked The World](https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack https://www.appsierra.com/blog/software-failures-due-to-lack...) Do you really think you can prove your point by showing me some sloplist of mildly high profile bugs? All these systems had extensive test suites and yet these problems happened anyway. Bugs happen in extensively tested systems literally all the time, but by your own logic, any bug is "due to lack of testing". That's an unproductive line of reasoning because it is not possible or practical to test for every possible eventuality. This is why fields like formal verification exist. >> Hiring people who think bloom filters are "exotic" to work on a distributed system could certainly doom that project to failure regardless of how diligently tested it is. > Citation needed. ever tried to build a distributed cache?? > The problem domain is never the data structure or algorithm. The problem domain is literally always that. The way your data is organized and the way you work with it is directly affected by the exact problem you are solving.

blind_tomato 1y ago

I'll ignore your advice. It's one-sided and misleading, lacking the nuances the OP had.

nice_byte 1y ago
feel free to. it's your career and your own precious time.