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Strange to see this here, it's quite delayed. The Henley data was poor, but this criticism was too. I don't think we have the data and I fear the Henley data a

Strange to see this here, it's quite delayed. The Henley data was poor, but this criticism was too. I don't think we have the data and I fear the Henley data actually underestimates the reality. FWIW, anecdotally my peers with the means are all looking at leaving and some have gone. I've closed down my business, my wife is looking at keeping hers running remotely because of the staff in it. And I'm typing this from a Dubai hotel room while I spend a couple of months seeing if I can set something new up that I can do from here. I don't relish saying that, but the UK is not in a good place and there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

metabagel 1y ago
Not much in the way of details in your post. You're shutting down your business and moving for... reasons. It boggles my mind that any westerner would choose to live and work in Dubai. Their laws and rules are very different from ours. I do see that they have made some steps toward reform of their debtors prisons. I'm very glad to see that, but I still do not consider Dubai to be a safe place to even visit, let alone live there. https://jamesberrylaw.com/news-details/no-prison-for-debt https://jamesberrylaw.com/news-details/no-prison-for-debt
- logicchains 1y ago
  >It boggles my mind that any westerner would choose to live and work in Dubai. Their laws and rules are very different from ours. As long as you're not borrowing money from local entities, you're almost certainly not going to run into any trouble like that in Dubai. In practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK; the government generally doesn't bother you or care what you're doing, as long as you don't get on the bad side of someone well-connected.
  - KaiserPro 1y ago
    > in practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK; > as long as you don't get on the bad side of someone well-connected. Thats a huge fucking caveat. given that the law is very much stacked in the favour of citizens, then if you do get into trouble, you're in deep shit fast.
    - logicchains 1y ago
      Yep, but if you're moving from the UK you've probably got some kind of international business or clients so are unlikely to have much interaction with the locals. This is even formalised in the business system there; if you're not doing business with locals, you can open a free-zone company, which are much easier/cheaper to open, but restricted to primarily doing business with overseas entities.
      - hermitcrab 1y ago
        >so are unlikely to have much interaction with the locals. You really aren't selling it.
      - KaiserPro 1y ago
        Yeah, you're also pretty much at the whim of your sponsor.
        cs02rm0 1y ago
        There are visa options where you don't need someone else to sponsor you.
  - barbazoo 1y ago
    > In practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK Even for women? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_Arab_Emira...
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- cs02rm0 1y ago
  The list of reasons really is too long to include. From the continued worsening of individual bits of tax legislation such as IR35, dividend allowances, employers NI, corporation tax, etc. to the stalling of real GDP per capita combined with an increased population and the consequentially stretched hospitals, transport, etc, the draconian policing of social media... it's pointless me trying to list it all really. Dubai is a bit of a trigger for some people. Others I know are going/gone to Portugal, Malta, Cyprus, the US, Aus, Can, NZ, Singapore, France. Your mileage may vary - people leaving can generally give you similar lists of why, but where they go seems varied. I used to live in Saudi for a time (25+ years ago), and actually really liked much about it then and it had changed markedly when I've been back more recently. I've visited Iraq, I've been detained in Oman under suspicion of espionage and still see virtues in the place. Dubai is positively liberal by comparison and becoming more liberal, while the UK is becoming more authoritarian and despite the official crime statistics, I'm not sure it's as safe as it once was.
logicchains 1y ago
>I don't relish saying that, but the UK is not in a good place and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. On the bright side, the weather in Dubai is much better than the UK's.
- cs02rm0 1y ago
  Starting every day with a swim in the sunshine does go a long way.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Dubai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Dubai Looks unhealthy unless one has air conditioning a lot of the year.
  - logicchains 1y ago
    The heat can be uncomfortable, but doesn't bring the vitamin D deprivation and seasonal depression associated with the UK climate.
    - hermitcrab 1y ago
      Vitamin D tablets are not expensive.
KaiserPro 1y ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002304z https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002304z this goes over the data. But in short its super patchy, based on a very small dataset, and a whole lot of vibes. > UK is not in a good place That may be, but dubai is basically farage's wet dream.
csb6 1y ago
It shouldn’t surprise me that people are unfazed by the fact that the UAE is built on labor by indentured servants with few rights and is rife with human rights abuses, but I suppose being “business friendly” trumps all if your top priority is avoiding taxes and accumulating wealth.
- floren 1y ago
  When you put it that way, it's amazing Bezos hasn't already moved.
youngtaff 1y ago
The UK could be in a better position but it’s not in a bad place…
hermitcrab 1y ago
>I don't relish saying that, but the UK is not in a good place And Dubai is?
- cs02rm0 1y ago
  Arguably not. They both have pros, they both have cons and I can't predict the future. But my intuition is, that on balance I can give my kids a substantially better life in Dubai. Safer, more sports, more languages, better school facilities. With parents less stressed but more motivated to work.
  - hermitcrab 1y ago
    And you're ok with living somewhere built on the misery of indentured labourers from poor countries?
    - cs02rm0 1y ago
      I think the picture of how the UK came to be what is today is a bit more complicated than just that take. Are you ok with living in a country where the state has turned a blind eye to widespread grooming gangs? Nowhere is perfect, to say the least. And my presence or absence has little affect on that. Labourers in the UAE are paid less than they would be in the UK, but more than they would be in their country of origin. And let's face it, the UK isn't giving them jobs. Is it better to give them low paid work as the UAE does, or better not to give them any work at all as the UK does? I don't think these ethical issues are simple, neither do I think there's one right answer.
      - hermitcrab 1y ago
        >Are you ok with living in a country where the state has turned a blind eye to widespread grooming gangs? Don't believe everything Elon Musk says. I think the authorities were slow to go after some of these groups, perhaps in case they were perceived as being racist. But I'm not sure 'turning a blind eye' is accurate. People have gone to prison.

metabagel 1y ago

Not much in the way of details in your post. You're shutting down your business and moving for... reasons. It boggles my mind that any westerner would choose to live and work in Dubai. Their laws and rules are very different from ours. I do see that they have made some steps toward reform of their debtors prisons. I'm very glad to see that, but I still do not consider Dubai to be a safe place to even visit, let alone live there. https://jamesberrylaw.com/news-details/no-prison-for-debt https://jamesberrylaw.com/news-details/no-prison-for-debt

logicchains 1y ago
>It boggles my mind that any westerner would choose to live and work in Dubai. Their laws and rules are very different from ours. As long as you're not borrowing money from local entities, you're almost certainly not going to run into any trouble like that in Dubai. In practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK; the government generally doesn't bother you or care what you're doing, as long as you don't get on the bad side of someone well-connected.
- KaiserPro 1y ago
  > in practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK; > as long as you don't get on the bad side of someone well-connected. Thats a huge fucking caveat. given that the law is very much stacked in the favour of citizens, then if you do get into trouble, you're in deep shit fast.
  - logicchains 1y ago
    Yep, but if you're moving from the UK you've probably got some kind of international business or clients so are unlikely to have much interaction with the locals. This is even formalised in the business system there; if you're not doing business with locals, you can open a free-zone company, which are much easier/cheaper to open, but restricted to primarily doing business with overseas entities.
    - hermitcrab 1y ago
      >so are unlikely to have much interaction with the locals. You really aren't selling it.
    - KaiserPro 1y ago
      Yeah, you're also pretty much at the whim of your sponsor.
      - cs02rm0 1y ago
        There are visa options where you don't need someone else to sponsor you.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  > In practice Dubai is more libertarian than the UK Even for women? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_Arab_Emira...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
cs02rm0 1y ago
The list of reasons really is too long to include. From the continued worsening of individual bits of tax legislation such as IR35, dividend allowances, employers NI, corporation tax, etc. to the stalling of real GDP per capita combined with an increased population and the consequentially stretched hospitals, transport, etc, the draconian policing of social media... it's pointless me trying to list it all really. Dubai is a bit of a trigger for some people. Others I know are going/gone to Portugal, Malta, Cyprus, the US, Aus, Can, NZ, Singapore, France. Your mileage may vary - people leaving can generally give you similar lists of why, but where they go seems varied. I used to live in Saudi for a time (25+ years ago), and actually really liked much about it then and it had changed markedly when I've been back more recently. I've visited Iraq, I've been detained in Oman under suspicion of espionage and still see virtues in the place. Dubai is positively liberal by comparison and becoming more liberal, while the UK is becoming more authoritarian and despite the official crime statistics, I'm not sure it's as safe as it once was.

logicchains 1y ago

>I don't relish saying that, but the UK is not in a good place and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. On the bright side, the weather in Dubai is much better than the UK's.

cs02rm0 1y ago
Starting every day with a swim in the sunshine does go a long way.
barbazoo 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Dubai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Dubai Looks unhealthy unless one has air conditioning a lot of the year.
- logicchains 1y ago
  The heat can be uncomfortable, but doesn't bring the vitamin D deprivation and seasonal depression associated with the UK climate.
  - hermitcrab 1y ago
    Vitamin D tablets are not expensive.

KaiserPro 1y ago

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002304z https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002304z this goes over the data. But in short its super patchy, based on a very small dataset, and a whole lot of vibes. > UK is not in a good place That may be, but dubai is basically farage's wet dream.

csb6 1y ago

It shouldn’t surprise me that people are unfazed by the fact that the UAE is built on labor by indentured servants with few rights and is rife with human rights abuses, but I suppose being “business friendly” trumps all if your top priority is avoiding taxes and accumulating wealth.

floren 1y ago
When you put it that way, it's amazing Bezos hasn't already moved.

youngtaff 1y ago

The UK could be in a better position but it’s not in a bad place…

hermitcrab 1y ago

>I don't relish saying that, but the UK is not in a good place And Dubai is?

cs02rm0 1y ago
Arguably not. They both have pros, they both have cons and I can't predict the future. But my intuition is, that on balance I can give my kids a substantially better life in Dubai. Safer, more sports, more languages, better school facilities. With parents less stressed but more motivated to work.
- hermitcrab 1y ago
  And you're ok with living somewhere built on the misery of indentured labourers from poor countries?
  - cs02rm0 1y ago
    I think the picture of how the UK came to be what is today is a bit more complicated than just that take. Are you ok with living in a country where the state has turned a blind eye to widespread grooming gangs? Nowhere is perfect, to say the least. And my presence or absence has little affect on that. Labourers in the UAE are paid less than they would be in the UK, but more than they would be in their country of origin. And let's face it, the UK isn't giving them jobs. Is it better to give them low paid work as the UAE does, or better not to give them any work at all as the UK does? I don't think these ethical issues are simple, neither do I think there's one right answer.
    - hermitcrab 1y ago
      >Are you ok with living in a country where the state has turned a blind eye to widespread grooming gangs? Don't believe everything Elon Musk says. I think the authorities were slow to go after some of these groups, perhaps in case they were perceived as being racist. But I'm not sure 'turning a blind eye' is accurate. People have gone to prison.