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I can’t take this article seriously, and neither should you. Being anti AI/anti LLM is solidly in the Luddite camp; there’s really no more debates to be had. Ev

I can’t take this article seriously, and neither should you. Being anti AI/anti LLM is solidly in the Luddite camp; there’s really no more debates to be had. Every serious inquiry shows productivity gains by using ai. It’s anyone’s prerogative to continue to advocate for the horse and buggy over the automobile, but most people won’t bother to take the discussion seriously.

snickerbockers 1y ago
>Being anti AI/anti LLM is solidly in the Luddite camp; there’s really no more debates to be had. Every serious inquiry shows productivity gains by using ai. These two sentences appear to be at odds with one another.
- Our_Benefactors 1y ago
  The data showed llms are better. This put debate to rest. Now we are post-debate.
  - JohnFen 1y ago
    What data are you talking about? Why do you value it above the data showing the opposite?
    - snickerbockers 1y ago
      It's superior data because it supports his expectations. His expectations are right because they are based on superior data. Checkmate Luddites.
      - Our_Benefactors 1y ago
        Meanwhile, you have furnished zero data that supports your claims. Ho hum.
        snickerbockers 1y ago
        Your initial statement is that you are not open to debate so i don't see what the point would be. Furthermore you defined "serious inquiries" as synonymous with your own preconceived ideas so by definition I cannot refute anything you say using a "serious inquiry". Do not interpret this as some sort of complement or concession but it is not possible to argue against you. Even putting the sophistry aside your argument is incomplete because you never defined what "productivity" means in this context or how it can be quantified. I would never dispute that a pseudo-random bullshit generator can shit out javascript faster than any human, but that's not necessarily productive.
  - snickerbockers 1y ago
    "the data"
  - lmf4lol 1y ago
    give me one seriously peer reviewed study please with proper controls i wait
    - Our_Benefactors 1y ago
      Go ahead and move the goalposts now... This took about 2 minutes of research to support the conclusions I know to be true. You can waste time as long as you choose in academia attempting to prove any point, while normal people make real contributions using LLMs. ### An Empirical Evaluation of Using Large Language Models for Automated Unit Test Generation We evaluate TESTPILOT using OpenAI’s gpt3.5-turbo LLM on 25 npm packages with a total of 1,684 API functions. The generated tests achieve a median statement coverage of 70.2% and branch coverage of 52.8%. In contrast, the state-of-the feedback-directed JavaScript test generation technique, Nessie, achieves only 51.3% statement coverage and 25.6% branch coverage. - *Link:* [An Empirical Evaluation of Using Large Language Models for Automated Unit Test Generation (arXiv)](https://arxiv.org/abs/2302.06527 https://arxiv.org/abs/2302.06527) --- ### Field Experiment – CodeFuse (12-week deployment) - Productivity (measured by the number of lines of code produced) increased by 55% for the group using the LLM. Approximately one third of this increase was directly attributable to code generated by the LLM. - *Link:* [CodeFuse: Generative AI for Code Productivity in the Workplace (BIS Working Paper 1208)](https://www.bis.org/publ/work1208.htm https://www.bis.org/publ/work1208.htm)
      - psunavy03 1y ago
        If you are seriously linking "productivity" to "lines of code produced," that says all about your credibility that I need to know.
        Our_Benefactors 1y ago
        Do you think LOC and program complexity are not correlated? You are arguing in bad faith.
        psunavy03 1y ago
darvid 1y ago
you're absolutely correct!
Refreeze5224 1y ago
Then put me solidly in the Luddite camp. I think you should look into the history of the Luddites though. They were not against technology; they were against technology that destroyed jobs. AI is about destroying working-class jobs so that corporations and the owning class can profit. It's not about writing code or summarizing articles. Those are just things workers can do with it. That's not what it's actually for. Its purpose is to reduce payroll costs for companies by replacing workers.
- logicprog 1y ago
  > They were not against technology; they were against technology that destroyed jobs. They were not against technology; they were against technology that their destroyed jobs. If we had followed what they wanted, we'd still be in a semi pre industrial artisnal economy, and the worse off for it.
  - lkey 1y ago
    So you didn't read about them. > In North West England, textile workers lacked these long-standing trade institutions and their letters composed an attempt to achieve recognition as a united body of tradespeople. As such, they were more likely to include petitions for governmental reforms, such as increased minimum wages and the cessation of child labor. Sounds pretty modern doesn't it? unions, wages, no child-exploitation... And the government response? > Mill and factory owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the movement was suppressed by legal and military force, which included execution and penal transportation of accused and convicted Luddites.
AllegedAlec 1y ago
> Being anti AI/anti LLM is solidly in the Luddite camp; there’s really no more debates to be had. Every serious inquiry shows productivity gains by using ai. "Guys this debate is so stupid. Every serious inquiry shows productivity gains when we take away all senses, jack workers into the matrix and feed them a steady diet of speed intravenously. This put debate to rest. Now we are post-debate" Something can increase productivity and still not be good.
xg15 1y ago
You mean like the study that found a 20% productivity drop instead of gain?
- logicprog 1y ago
  It didn't really show that if you break down the data, and its methodology was pretty bad https://www.fightforthehuman.com/are-developers-slowed-down-by-ai-evaluating-an-rct-and-what-it-tells-us-about-developer-productivity/ https://www.fightforthehuman.com/are-developers-slowed-down-...
steve_adams_86 1y ago
The Luddites had some great ideas and were driven by a more sophisticated philosophy than people tend to give them credit for. I think their motivations are still applicable and worth considering today.

snickerbockers 1y ago

>Being anti AI/anti LLM is solidly in the Luddite camp; there’s really no more debates to be had. Every serious inquiry shows productivity gains by using ai. These two sentences appear to be at odds with one another.

Our_Benefactors 1y ago
The data showed llms are better. This put debate to rest. Now we are post-debate.
- JohnFen 1y ago
  What data are you talking about? Why do you value it above the data showing the opposite?
  - snickerbockers 1y ago
    It's superior data because it supports his expectations. His expectations are right because they are based on superior data. Checkmate Luddites.
    - Our_Benefactors 1y ago
      Meanwhile, you have furnished zero data that supports your claims. Ho hum.
      - snickerbockers 1y ago
        Your initial statement is that you are not open to debate so i don't see what the point would be. Furthermore you defined "serious inquiries" as synonymous with your own preconceived ideas so by definition I cannot refute anything you say using a "serious inquiry". Do not interpret this as some sort of complement or concession but it is not possible to argue against you. Even putting the sophistry aside your argument is incomplete because you never defined what "productivity" means in this context or how it can be quantified. I would never dispute that a pseudo-random bullshit generator can shit out javascript faster than any human, but that's not necessarily productive.
- snickerbockers 1y ago
  "the data"
- lmf4lol 1y ago
  give me one seriously peer reviewed study please with proper controls i wait
  - Our_Benefactors 1y ago
    Go ahead and move the goalposts now... This took about 2 minutes of research to support the conclusions I know to be true. You can waste time as long as you choose in academia attempting to prove any point, while normal people make real contributions using LLMs. ### An Empirical Evaluation of Using Large Language Models for Automated Unit Test Generation We evaluate TESTPILOT using OpenAI’s gpt3.5-turbo LLM on 25 npm packages with a total of 1,684 API functions. The generated tests achieve a median statement coverage of 70.2% and branch coverage of 52.8%. In contrast, the state-of-the feedback-directed JavaScript test generation technique, Nessie, achieves only 51.3% statement coverage and 25.6% branch coverage. - *Link:* [An Empirical Evaluation of Using Large Language Models for Automated Unit Test Generation (arXiv)](https://arxiv.org/abs/2302.06527 https://arxiv.org/abs/2302.06527) --- ### Field Experiment – CodeFuse (12-week deployment) - Productivity (measured by the number of lines of code produced) increased by 55% for the group using the LLM. Approximately one third of this increase was directly attributable to code generated by the LLM. - *Link:* [CodeFuse: Generative AI for Code Productivity in the Workplace (BIS Working Paper 1208)](https://www.bis.org/publ/work1208.htm https://www.bis.org/publ/work1208.htm)
    - psunavy03 1y ago
      If you are seriously linking "productivity" to "lines of code produced," that says all about your credibility that I need to know.
      - Our_Benefactors 1y ago
        Do you think LOC and program complexity are not correlated? You are arguing in bad faith.
        psunavy03 1y ago

darvid 1y ago

you're absolutely correct!

Refreeze5224 1y ago

Then put me solidly in the Luddite camp. I think you should look into the history of the Luddites though. They were not against technology; they were against technology that destroyed jobs. AI is about destroying working-class jobs so that corporations and the owning class can profit. It's not about writing code or summarizing articles. Those are just things workers can do with it. That's not what it's actually for. Its purpose is to reduce payroll costs for companies by replacing workers.

logicprog 1y ago
> They were not against technology; they were against technology that destroyed jobs. They were not against technology; they were against technology that their destroyed jobs. If we had followed what they wanted, we'd still be in a semi pre industrial artisnal economy, and the worse off for it.
- lkey 1y ago
  So you didn't read about them. > In North West England, textile workers lacked these long-standing trade institutions and their letters composed an attempt to achieve recognition as a united body of tradespeople. As such, they were more likely to include petitions for governmental reforms, such as increased minimum wages and the cessation of child labor. Sounds pretty modern doesn't it? unions, wages, no child-exploitation... And the government response? > Mill and factory owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the movement was suppressed by legal and military force, which included execution and penal transportation of accused and convicted Luddites.

AllegedAlec 1y ago

> Being anti AI/anti LLM is solidly in the Luddite camp; there’s really no more debates to be had. Every serious inquiry shows productivity gains by using ai. "Guys this debate is so stupid. Every serious inquiry shows productivity gains when we take away all senses, jack workers into the matrix and feed them a steady diet of speed intravenously. This put debate to rest. Now we are post-debate" Something can increase productivity and still not be good.

xg15 1y ago

You mean like the study that found a 20% productivity drop instead of gain?

logicprog 1y ago
It didn't really show that if you break down the data, and its methodology was pretty bad https://www.fightforthehuman.com/are-developers-slowed-down-by-ai-evaluating-an-rct-and-what-it-tells-us-about-developer-productivity/ https://www.fightforthehuman.com/are-developers-slowed-down-...

steve_adams_86 1y ago

The Luddites had some great ideas and were driven by a more sophisticated philosophy than people tend to give them credit for. I think their motivations are still applicable and worth considering today.