5 ms·
As a Persian, I feel compelled explain. The entire of the Middle East operates on a principle of magnanimous hospitality. The Arabs call this karam, for exampl
by fny 1y ago
As a Persian, I feel compelled explain.
The entire of the Middle East operates on a principle of magnanimous hospitality. The Arabs call this karam, for example, which is considered to even be a religious obligation.
So if you're a stranger passing through a town and chat with some locals, you can expect for someone to invite you for tea and maybe even dinner!
Do you take them up on the offer?
Most people in the West would ask themselves "do I have the time", but a middle easterner would think "do they have the time?" Remember, you as a guest are also magnanimously hospitable--in this case, the least possible burden. Unfortunately, the guest must navigate whether they are being considerate or insulting by refusing hospitality.
Now to address taarof specifically. Persian's have pathologized hosptiality to the point of psychosis. The behavior is often mechanically choreographed (e.g. you should refuse at least twice before accepting a cucumber.) In other cases, it's insane.
Story time:
My mom and aunt had not seen each other for 3 years and met for lunch at a cafe. They went back and forth over who would pay at the register until it erupted into a fight. They sat at separate tables for lunch.
A close family friend--with no provocation from my sister--offered to house her for a weekend she was visiting. My sister accepted. That friend later complained to my mother.
A friend of mine went to a mechanic who offered to fix a small issue for free. My friend knowing better paid him anyway, but the mechanic was still upset since he didn't pay enough!
Edit: Just to address some of the comments. Abroad, the degree of hospitality is warped for foreigners (for what I hope are obvious reasons). Middle easterners in the West are far more inclusive.
- johnzim 1y agoI can well believe! My Persian friend stopped attending a longstanding study group of the Book of Kings because it went from being quite American in culture to full-on taarof, and they complained that only 25% as much was actually being covered because of all the enforced civility.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- nwhnwh 1y ago[flagged]
- fny 1y agoThey are absolutely this hospitable to each other all the time. Willingness to be hospitable to foreigners obviously depends on war. But I'm sure Iran would love to have Americans over for tea as a hostages anyway. ;)
- mainecoder 1y agoSuch misinformed takes have you actually traveled to the middle east or traveled at all, how can you be this naive thinking the people and government are the same I wonder what you think of North Koreans as well you would be very wrong and I have met both.
- sandworm101 1y agoFormalized politeness is also a cover. I remember a senior military officer deployed to Afghanistan. On week one he met with all the local leaders, drinking tea in countless houses. But by week two many of those same leaders were shooting at his people. The officer didn't understand that when he was new he was protected as a "guest" but that enforced politeness was never going to be permanent. Crossroad countries like Afghanistan/Iran have long support traders moving through and have cultures to support such travelers. But as soon as one is longer moving through, one shifts from honored guest to despised invader. Many westerners in places like Japan speak of extreme politeness early on, but radical changes once you stay long enough to no longer be a guest in an area. Then the knives come out. Want to rent an expensive apartment in Tokyo as an english teacher? Cool. Hoops to jump but it can be done. Want to buy one of those cheap houses in rural Japan? Heck no.
- Foreignborn 1y agothe cheap house thing has nothing to do with if you’re foreign and everything to do with a bank not wanting to lend money for something there’s no market for. you can easily buy these homes with cash. i know because i have a ton of friends that have done exactly this. if you want a cheap house in a good market like tokyo, osaka or fukoaka, then you can do so through a bank via the normal routes
- emchammer 1y ago[flagged]
- michalpleban 1y agoFrom what you are describing, it seems to me that Iran is practically hell on earth for autistic people.
- georgeburdell 1y agoI married in to such a family. My solution was to just take people up on their offers until they learned not to offer things they did not really want to offer. It’s such a culturally time wasting practice that I did not want to accommodate it in the U.S. In Iran I would behave as the locals do.
- michalpleban 1y agoBut, for a person with autism, behaving in this way is practically impossible. I wouldn't even know where to begin and how.
- ACS_Solver 1y agoFrom my perspective, even the US cultural norm is way too taarof. It's normal for Americans to offer things for politeness, with no intention to follow up and the interlocutor is also expected to understand the offer isn't genuine. So a phrase like "we should grab lunch" can be said without being an actual invitation for lunch. And then there's the whole aspect of avoiding criticism or saying no. "I don't think that's a good idea" in the US is more likely to mean "no, we're not doing that" than "I don't think that's a good idea so you need to convince me more if you want to do that". As someone who also struggles to decode situations where people's actual, implicit meaning runs contrary to the explicit meaning of the words, American norms of indirectness are already a headache. Persian or Arab communication is much more indirect and that sounds like a nightmare to me.
- toomanyrichies 1y agoAs an autistic person, you read my mind.
- sublinear 1y agoI know you meant this tongue-in-cheek, but thanks for saying it anyway for the replies it would eventually accumulate. I think we have too many people self-diagnosing autism when what they're really experiencing is ignorance of irrational social norms that are more about fashion than emotional intelligence. Of course an LLM would be bad at such a topic since these are largely unspoken rules designed to be a form of discrimination.
- zdragnar 1y agoI noticed something similar with a Taiwanese family I was close to for awhile. It was customary to fight over any bill when sharing a meal. They would be quietly upset if someone actually took them up on their offer to pay without attempting to try to pay for the whole bill themselves a few times. I know my (first generation American) father and his siblings would do the same, but only ever with each other, and it had the feel of an old joke. Taarof definitely sounds like this taken several steps further- and sounds utterly exhausting to my emotionally stunted brain.
- bohadi 1y agoMaddeningly accurate. Taarof can demonstrate a mastery of social intelligence, like the Japanese tea ceremony writ large in society, and is a good goalpost for AGI. Not one month ago, as an admission of my own clumsy slight, I had remarked to a senior of higher status, that Chatgpt could just grasp Taarof.
- more_corn 1y agoI’m so glad I don’t live in a culture where I have to play these games. If you offer I will assume that you mean it. If you decline my offer I will assume you know best. If you say something I will assume that you mean it. It was so refreshing to visit New York City. The clerk says “waddya want”, no fake west coast smile, no hollow welcome “I want coffee” Now if someone smiles at me I can assume it’s genuine.