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The main judgement here seems to be: not everyone was there to get a refund, therefore, just entering the store is not an opt-in consent to biometric scans. As

The main judgement here seems to be: not everyone was there to get a refund, therefore, just entering the store is not an opt-in consent to biometric scans. As a counter-example: Australian clubbing venues use facial recognition and id verification to identify banned individuals and detect fake documentation. This is required on condition of entry (therefore, opt-in), and this information is shared across all partner venues. https://scantek.com/facial-biometric-matching-technology-scantek/id-verification-venue-entry/ https://scantek.com/facial-biometric-matching-technology-sca...

silexia 1y ago
Crazy. Seems like a good application, but there is lots of potential for abuse.
- fsckboy 1y ago
  nightclubs want lots of customers especially attractive women, and don't want lots of problems. What's the potential for abuse? Detecting your attractiveness or ethnicity in order to turn you away would be abuses, but is that what you are thinking of or alleging? because if it's just facial recognition, they don't have an incentive to misidentify people
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    if anything is stored, "we know you were at this night club at this time" is pretty sensitive information? depending on the kind of club.
  - shermantanktop 1y ago
    This is indiscriminate data collection. Some of the risk comes from the correlation with other sources of data by LEO with overly broad access to fine grained data. Big Brother is not watching you. Instead, thousands of Little Brothers are patiently watching their little corner of the world, recording license plates, logging phone locations, tracking credit card usage. Big Brother doesn’t need to see you, he just asks them to tell him what he wants to know.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- mmmlinux 1y ago
  casinos have been doing this for years, its nothing new.
dghlsakjg 1y ago
Something that you are required to do by every single venue that offers a service in order to participate is not really what I would call opt in. Yes, you can opt out by never going to a nightclub, but that seems different. You can’t really call something opt-in if opting out means that you are barred from participating in an entire class of activity unrelated to what you opted out of. As a counter example, the TSA in the US is now starting to use facial scans for ID, but you can opt out by telling the agent. It does not mean that you cannot go flying, it means that they use a human to identify you without the use of computerized facial scans.
- nine_k 1y ago
  To enter a movie theater, you have to buy a ticket. If you don't, you're barred from the entire class of activity of movie-going. Where is the difference?
  - edlebert 1y ago
    The difference is that buying a ticket isn't marketed as "opt-in".
  - spiderice 1y ago
    > activity unrelated to what you opted out of Going to see a movie is obviously not unrelated to buying a movie ticket.
  - dghlsakjg 1y ago
    Do you really not see the difference between having to pay for a service and having to upload biometric data in a centralized database under someone else’s control? For one, I don’t have to buy a ticket. Many theaters participate in programs where you can get a ticket as a reward for other activities (credit card points, eg). The ticket sale is determined by the theater, and is not part of a government supported scheme to prevent some people from ever seeing a movie in any theater, ever. Finally, the sale of a ticket is necessary for the operation of many movie theaters. It is intrinsic to the business model. The nightclub could operate the service, and even work with ban lists without the centralized biometric database.
vonneumannstan 1y ago
How is this the case? Presumably the scenario where they have live camera feeds and a security guard recognizes a banned person on them and removes them would be fine. Why does replacing the human with an algorithm legally make a difference? Did people consent to being facially recognized by a human security guard?
- rainbowzootsuit 1y ago
  I think that it's analogous to when my genitals are fondled by a TSA agent because I opt out of body scans. The memory of the feeling of them caressing my shape lives on only in their brain instead of being permanently recorded in a database.
  - socalgal2 1y ago
    that distinction won't last more than a few more years
LiquidSky 1y ago
That's not a counter-example to the judgment reasoning you highlight: everyone entering a night club is there to enter a night club, not everyone entering a K-mart is there to get a refund.
- socalgal2 1y ago
  I'm not sure I see the distinction. Everyone trying to enter K-mart is trying to enter K-mart just like the night club. Everyone going into the night club is not there to drink/meet someone/dance/use the restroom/make a drug deal Just like not everyone going into K-Mart is there to shop/browse/by a snack/get a refund/steal something

silexia 1y ago

Crazy. Seems like a good application, but there is lots of potential for abuse.

fsckboy 1y ago
nightclubs want lots of customers especially attractive women, and don't want lots of problems. What's the potential for abuse? Detecting your attractiveness or ethnicity in order to turn you away would be abuses, but is that what you are thinking of or alleging? because if it's just facial recognition, they don't have an incentive to misidentify people
- nemomarx 1y ago
  if anything is stored, "we know you were at this night club at this time" is pretty sensitive information? depending on the kind of club.
- shermantanktop 1y ago
  This is indiscriminate data collection. Some of the risk comes from the correlation with other sources of data by LEO with overly broad access to fine grained data. Big Brother is not watching you. Instead, thousands of Little Brothers are patiently watching their little corner of the world, recording license plates, logging phone locations, tracking credit card usage. Big Brother doesn’t need to see you, he just asks them to tell him what he wants to know.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
mmmlinux 1y ago
casinos have been doing this for years, its nothing new.

dghlsakjg 1y ago

Something that you are required to do by every single venue that offers a service in order to participate is not really what I would call opt in. Yes, you can opt out by never going to a nightclub, but that seems different. You can’t really call something opt-in if opting out means that you are barred from participating in an entire class of activity unrelated to what you opted out of. As a counter example, the TSA in the US is now starting to use facial scans for ID, but you can opt out by telling the agent. It does not mean that you cannot go flying, it means that they use a human to identify you without the use of computerized facial scans.

nine_k 1y ago
To enter a movie theater, you have to buy a ticket. If you don't, you're barred from the entire class of activity of movie-going. Where is the difference?
- edlebert 1y ago
  The difference is that buying a ticket isn't marketed as "opt-in".
- spiderice 1y ago
  > activity unrelated to what you opted out of Going to see a movie is obviously not unrelated to buying a movie ticket.
- dghlsakjg 1y ago
  Do you really not see the difference between having to pay for a service and having to upload biometric data in a centralized database under someone else’s control? For one, I don’t have to buy a ticket. Many theaters participate in programs where you can get a ticket as a reward for other activities (credit card points, eg). The ticket sale is determined by the theater, and is not part of a government supported scheme to prevent some people from ever seeing a movie in any theater, ever. Finally, the sale of a ticket is necessary for the operation of many movie theaters. It is intrinsic to the business model. The nightclub could operate the service, and even work with ban lists without the centralized biometric database.

vonneumannstan 1y ago

How is this the case? Presumably the scenario where they have live camera feeds and a security guard recognizes a banned person on them and removes them would be fine. Why does replacing the human with an algorithm legally make a difference? Did people consent to being facially recognized by a human security guard?

rainbowzootsuit 1y ago
I think that it's analogous to when my genitals are fondled by a TSA agent because I opt out of body scans. The memory of the feeling of them caressing my shape lives on only in their brain instead of being permanently recorded in a database.
- socalgal2 1y ago
  that distinction won't last more than a few more years

LiquidSky 1y ago

That's not a counter-example to the judgment reasoning you highlight: everyone entering a night club is there to enter a night club, not everyone entering a K-mart is there to get a refund.

socalgal2 1y ago
I'm not sure I see the distinction. Everyone trying to enter K-mart is trying to enter K-mart just like the night club. Everyone going into the night club is not there to drink/meet someone/dance/use the restroom/make a drug deal Just like not everyone going into K-Mart is there to shop/browse/by a snack/get a refund/steal something