> You guys are talking past each other. Agreed. > but it isn't reality right now, so I own a car. This means that you at least consider a possibility of livi

> You guys are talking past each other. Agreed. > but it isn't reality right now, so I own a car. This means that you at least consider a possibility of living without a car. You at least understand that there is nothing about the US making it impossible to work towards car independence. I have no reason to argue with you or people who share this sentiment. I do get upset at the people who think that this situation is static and that it can not be changed, ever. But I get more upset at the people who complain at the North American reality only when they are directly suffering from it, and act like when the systemic problem doesn't exist anymore just because they manage to "solve the issue" for themselves. > As an aside, the Dutch aren't nearly as car free as you are presenting. They have high rates of car ownership, but they are not car dependent. Even the people who have to drive for work use cars only for longer distance trips, and walk/bike/use public transport for shorter ones. In Greece, much like in the US, people assume that you have to have a car to do anything.