6 ms·

I heard that Caltrain toyed with the idea of partnering with waymo to get people to and from train stations more affordably but dang wouldn't it be nice if one

by raybb 1y ago

I heard that Caltrain toyed with the idea of partnering with waymo to get people to and from train stations more affordably but dang wouldn't it be nice if one of the ride hailing companies started offering shuttle type services to get you to the train station but while sharing with other people. Better bus coverage and reliability would be ideal but perhaps this could be used to help make the case in the mean time.

cjensen 1y ago
ACE Rail (from Stockton to San Jose) has an absolutely wonderful network of eight shuttle buses that meet the train when it arrives at the Great America station[1]. They fan out across most of the Silicon Valley so that there's no need to wait for a bus or make connections between buses. Every commuter rail line really should do this. Obviously Caltrain could not do this for every train, but how about some trains? [1] https://cdn.acerail.com/wp-content/uploads/ACE-Shuttle-Map-Sched-June-27-2016.pdf https://cdn.acerail.com/wp-content/uploads/ACE-Shuttle-Map-S...
- rsynnott 1y ago
  Feeder buses are fairly standard in many transport systems.
Vinnl 1y ago
The Dutch railways have offered ridiculously cheap bicycle rentals by almost every station for years now, and it's so helpful. No need to plan travel times, just tap your card and go. Of course this also requires proper bicycle infrastructure to be available, but it shows how well this could work.
- MassPikeMike 1y ago
  Bikes can work great for travelers aged from, say, 13 to 70 without much luggage. Not so great for travelers outside that age range, with more luggage, or with physical disabilities. I wonder what fraction of travelers falls into the latter category.
  - sour-taste 1y ago
    I agree standard bikes are a poor fit for luggage. There are cargo (e)bikes that can comfortably hold large bags (e.g. https://larryvsharry.com/products/ebullitt https://larryvsharry.com/products/ebullitt). They may make sense at major rail stations, but the logistics of keeping them in stock at the station would be hard, and of course this doesn't solve the infrastructure or physical disabilities/age problem.
  - jen20 1y ago
    While we're on that subject, there is a special place in hell for whoever decided to put stairs with the only backup option being the smallest, slowest lift known to man in St Pancras station. Such idiocy.
  - Vinnl 1y ago
    Yeah, that covers a significant portion of the population, leaving the roads less congested for those who can't use both that and e.g. a bus.
- newyankee 1y ago
  It requires dense cities too unless most of the population is fit enough to cycle
  - Vinnl 1y ago
    Well, not super dense; it's available at least in the towns and cities that most people either live in or visit. And it obviously only works for people who can cycle. But with those two restrictions you would still serve a very significant chunk of the population of pretty much any country. It's really the bike infrastructure that's the limiting factor elsewhere.
- gausswho 1y ago
  I rented one of those in Amsterdam then rode the beautiful tree-lined path along canals to Utrecht one day. I then rode back with the bike to Amsterdam. When I arrived, I was told this was not allowed, but it wasn't clear why. Maybe the municipal bikes need to stay in city limits? This was about a decade ago. Maybe you can enlighten me?
  - owenversteeg 1y ago
    Hm, strange. That has been allowed for many years now, you do pay a fee of 10 euros though. There are no restrictions on where you can ride the bikes either. https://www.ns.nl/klantenservice/deur-tot-deur-diensten/ov-fiets.html https://www.ns.nl/klantenservice/deur-tot-deur-diensten/ov-f... >Kan ik een OV-fiets op een andere locatie inleveren? >Je kunt een OV-fiets ook op een andere locatie inleveren. Je betaalt dan wel € 10 extra. Deze extra kosten zijn voor het verplaatsen van de fiets. >Lever je de fiets in bij een andere locatie op hetzelfde station? Dan betaal je niks extra.
  - Vinnl 1y ago
    Was that an OV-fiets (which I was talking about)? (Also asking because they're not by the municipality.) The main restriction is that you should bring it back to the place where you rented it, or pay €10 extra. I don't know how they'd even know that you took it out of the city?
    - gausswho 1y ago
      It was OV Fiets. Maybe the issue is that I wasn't supposed to have it on the train back from Utrecht during certain hours. Or a certain car. Despite receiving this info, I wasn't fined or anything.
      - Vinnl 1y ago
        Ah, you took it by train - yes, that's probably it. You can only take bikes on the train outside of rush hours. The main reason I think is just because they take up too much space, so presumably it wasn't too much of a problem, so glad to hear they were lenient.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Better bus coverage and reliability would be ideal Busses seem suboptimal if you don’t need a driver. They’re too big. Peoples’ travel plans in space and time are naturally heterogenous; the less we force passengers to travel to and from stops or change their plans to match a schedule, the more people will ride.
- JadeNB 1y ago
  Why would this be an issue with the driver? I don't mean that combatively; I really don't see it. It seems to me that any form of transit, autonomous or not, either runs on some sort of centrally controlled schedule subject to optimization, or can be summoned on demand, in which case it only works as long as not too many people use it (usually because of cost), or else it will lead to traffic congestion and worsen rather than improve traffic.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Why would this be an issue with the driver? Drivers are the dominant operating cost of a bus system, and they’re typically paid regardless of ridership. That means you have a minimum ridership per driver required to offset their cost. Bus systems thus size the bus and route to ensure that minimum ridership. That, in turn, requires aggregating demand, i.e. forcing people to change the places and times of their transit to line up with the bus’s. Analogous to lift and drag, the more you force people to change their schedules, the more you lose potential demand to alternatives. If you don’t have a driver, you can make your transports as big or small as you’d like. In rare cases, they’ll be bus sized. But most busses either aren’t consistently full or lose a lot of potential riders because their schedules and stops are inconvenient. A fleet of smaller vehicles sops up that demand without hauling around a bunch of dead mass off rush hour.
    - JadeNB 1y ago
      I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions, but I know that I haven't thought about it in detail and you obviously have. Thank you for the considered argument.
Seattle3503 1y ago
Ive wondered if more people would use trains if you bring your car with you. You skip the traffic, but you have your car at the destination.
- bombcar 1y ago
  https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train Consistently one of the most sold-out and profitable routes.
  - Seattle3503 1y ago
    Nice!
- hdgvhicv 1y ago
  Or you could just hire a car at the destination. If you need one.
  - Seattle3503 1y ago
    You'd need to do it to get to the train too. To someone who lives 45 min+ away that would be a lot.
    - hdgvhicv 1y ago
      You’d drive your own car. Sane as you would to the airport. Or to a motorrail station.
      - Seattle3503 1y ago
        Where I live, overnight parking is $20-30 a day. For longer trips I'd imagine bringing your car is worth it. Especially if you are renting a car on the other end.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Sure - at $100/day. This cost adds up fast. Bringing my own minivan would have been a similar cost, and had a lot more space than the small car we were able to rent. Plus we could have left most of our baggage in the car since we didn't need it on the train.

by raybb 1y ago

cjensen 1y ago

ACE Rail (from Stockton to San Jose) has an absolutely wonderful network of eight shuttle buses that meet the train when it arrives at the Great America station[1]. They fan out across most of the Silicon Valley so that there's no need to wait for a bus or make connections between buses. Every commuter rail line really should do this. Obviously Caltrain could not do this for every train, but how about some trains? [1] https://cdn.acerail.com/wp-content/uploads/ACE-Shuttle-Map-Sched-June-27-2016.pdf https://cdn.acerail.com/wp-content/uploads/ACE-Shuttle-Map-S...

rsynnott 1y ago
Feeder buses are fairly standard in many transport systems.

Vinnl 1y ago

The Dutch railways have offered ridiculously cheap bicycle rentals by almost every station for years now, and it's so helpful. No need to plan travel times, just tap your card and go. Of course this also requires proper bicycle infrastructure to be available, but it shows how well this could work.

MassPikeMike 1y ago
Bikes can work great for travelers aged from, say, 13 to 70 without much luggage. Not so great for travelers outside that age range, with more luggage, or with physical disabilities. I wonder what fraction of travelers falls into the latter category.
- sour-taste 1y ago
  I agree standard bikes are a poor fit for luggage. There are cargo (e)bikes that can comfortably hold large bags (e.g. https://larryvsharry.com/products/ebullitt https://larryvsharry.com/products/ebullitt). They may make sense at major rail stations, but the logistics of keeping them in stock at the station would be hard, and of course this doesn't solve the infrastructure or physical disabilities/age problem.
- jen20 1y ago
  While we're on that subject, there is a special place in hell for whoever decided to put stairs with the only backup option being the smallest, slowest lift known to man in St Pancras station. Such idiocy.
- Vinnl 1y ago
  Yeah, that covers a significant portion of the population, leaving the roads less congested for those who can't use both that and e.g. a bus.
newyankee 1y ago
It requires dense cities too unless most of the population is fit enough to cycle
- Vinnl 1y ago
  Well, not super dense; it's available at least in the towns and cities that most people either live in or visit. And it obviously only works for people who can cycle. But with those two restrictions you would still serve a very significant chunk of the population of pretty much any country. It's really the bike infrastructure that's the limiting factor elsewhere.
gausswho 1y ago
I rented one of those in Amsterdam then rode the beautiful tree-lined path along canals to Utrecht one day. I then rode back with the bike to Amsterdam. When I arrived, I was told this was not allowed, but it wasn't clear why. Maybe the municipal bikes need to stay in city limits? This was about a decade ago. Maybe you can enlighten me?
- owenversteeg 1y ago
  Hm, strange. That has been allowed for many years now, you do pay a fee of 10 euros though. There are no restrictions on where you can ride the bikes either. https://www.ns.nl/klantenservice/deur-tot-deur-diensten/ov-fiets.html https://www.ns.nl/klantenservice/deur-tot-deur-diensten/ov-f... >Kan ik een OV-fiets op een andere locatie inleveren? >Je kunt een OV-fiets ook op een andere locatie inleveren. Je betaalt dan wel € 10 extra. Deze extra kosten zijn voor het verplaatsen van de fiets. >Lever je de fiets in bij een andere locatie op hetzelfde station? Dan betaal je niks extra.
- Vinnl 1y ago
  Was that an OV-fiets (which I was talking about)? (Also asking because they're not by the municipality.) The main restriction is that you should bring it back to the place where you rented it, or pay €10 extra. I don't know how they'd even know that you took it out of the city?
  - gausswho 1y ago
    It was OV Fiets. Maybe the issue is that I wasn't supposed to have it on the train back from Utrecht during certain hours. Or a certain car. Despite receiving this info, I wasn't fined or anything.
    - Vinnl 1y ago
      Ah, you took it by train - yes, that's probably it. You can only take bikes on the train outside of rush hours. The main reason I think is just because they take up too much space, so presumably it wasn't too much of a problem, so glad to hear they were lenient.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Better bus coverage and reliability would be ideal Busses seem suboptimal if you don’t need a driver. They’re too big. Peoples’ travel plans in space and time are naturally heterogenous; the less we force passengers to travel to and from stops or change their plans to match a schedule, the more people will ride.

JadeNB 1y ago
Why would this be an issue with the driver? I don't mean that combatively; I really don't see it. It seems to me that any form of transit, autonomous or not, either runs on some sort of centrally controlled schedule subject to optimization, or can be summoned on demand, in which case it only works as long as not too many people use it (usually because of cost), or else it will lead to traffic congestion and worsen rather than improve traffic.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Why would this be an issue with the driver? Drivers are the dominant operating cost of a bus system, and they’re typically paid regardless of ridership. That means you have a minimum ridership per driver required to offset their cost. Bus systems thus size the bus and route to ensure that minimum ridership. That, in turn, requires aggregating demand, i.e. forcing people to change the places and times of their transit to line up with the bus’s. Analogous to lift and drag, the more you force people to change their schedules, the more you lose potential demand to alternatives. If you don’t have a driver, you can make your transports as big or small as you’d like. In rare cases, they’ll be bus sized. But most busses either aren’t consistently full or lose a lot of potential riders because their schedules and stops are inconvenient. A fleet of smaller vehicles sops up that demand without hauling around a bunch of dead mass off rush hour.
  - JadeNB 1y ago
    I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions, but I know that I haven't thought about it in detail and you obviously have. Thank you for the considered argument.

Seattle3503 1y ago

Ive wondered if more people would use trains if you bring your car with you. You skip the traffic, but you have your car at the destination.

bombcar 1y ago
https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train https://www.amtrak.com/auto-train Consistently one of the most sold-out and profitable routes.
- Seattle3503 1y ago
  Nice!
hdgvhicv 1y ago
Or you could just hire a car at the destination. If you need one.
- Seattle3503 1y ago
  You'd need to do it to get to the train too. To someone who lives 45 min+ away that would be a lot.
  - hdgvhicv 1y ago
    You’d drive your own car. Sane as you would to the airport. Or to a motorrail station.
    - Seattle3503 1y ago
      Where I live, overnight parking is $20-30 a day. For longer trips I'd imagine bringing your car is worth it. Especially if you are renting a car on the other end.
- bluGill 1y ago
  Sure - at $100/day. This cost adds up fast. Bringing my own minivan would have been a similar cost, and had a lot more space than the small car we were able to rent. Plus we could have left most of our baggage in the car since we didn't need it on the train.