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Everyone of importance on the Soviet/Russian side has refuted this. See here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43149963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id

by mopsi 1y ago

Everyone of importance on the Soviet/Russian side has refuted this. See here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43149963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43149963 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43353857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43353857 Gorbachev himself said that even if they wanted to, officials in the West cannot give such assurances, because the voters can replace them at any moment, and added that if they had had an agreement, they would've written it down for exacly that reason. Soviet diplomats were not dumb. Not to mention that the alleged assurance is anachronistic, as the Soviet foreign minister at the time has pointed out. Germany bordered the Warsaw Pact and there was nowhere for NATO to "expand" in 1990 and thus nothing to discuss. Map: https://i.imgur.com/TQgnuIF.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/TQgnuIF.jpeg

drysine 1y ago
>Everyone of importance on the Soviet/Russian side has refuted this. Whose people you cite also happen to emigrate to the West or at least from Russia. >Soviet diplomats were not dumb. Or very interested in not looking dumb after it turned out that they were fooled. In other words, what they say happen to make them look good. It makes incredibly valuable when American diplomats say that the promises were given even though it makes them look bad because the promises were broken (or about to be broken).
- mopsi 1y ago
  > Whose people you cite also happen to emigrate to the West or at least from Russia. Gorbachev and Yazov never emigrated. They both died in Moscow in the early 2020s. > Or very interested in not looking dumb after it turned out that they were fooled. In other words, what they say happen to make them look good. This is unfounded speculation. Shevardnadze has explained in detail how this narrative is a misunderstanding (or in many cases, a willful misrepresentation) of the 4+2 treaty. The main issue in early 1990 was the details of German reunification. After East and West Germany became a single state again, would Germany leave NATO? Would NATO be present only in West Germany, or in former East Germany as well? This was the contemporary context, since a unified Germany would share a long border with the Warsaw Pact. Things often claimed about "NATO promises" are actually right there, written down in articles 4 and 5 of the treaty. The treaty prohibited the stationing of non-German forces and military exercises in East Germany until the complete withdrawal of Soviet troops. Both Gorbachev and Shevardnadze have said that NATO kept its promises and the agreement was concluded when the last Soviet forces left Germany in 1994. The treaty can be found here, scroll down for links to PDFs in multiple languages: https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=08000002800b8042&clang=_en https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000...
  - drysine 1y ago
    >Gorbachev and Yazov never emigrated. Gorbachev used to live in Germany. [0] The rest of your comment is again a straw-man argument - Matlock (American ambassador to the USSR at that time) was talking about promises not given in a legally binding way and you are citing some treaty. [0] https://www.dw.com/ru/mihail-gorbacev-prodaet-bavarskuu-villu-s-vidom-na-alpy/a-37687143 https://www.dw.com/ru/mihail-gorbacev-prodaet-bavarskuu-vill...

by mopsi 1y ago

drysine 1y ago

>Everyone of importance on the Soviet/Russian side has refuted this. Whose people you cite also happen to emigrate to the West or at least from Russia. >Soviet diplomats were not dumb. Or very interested in not looking dumb after it turned out that they were fooled. In other words, what they say happen to make them look good. It makes incredibly valuable when American diplomats say that the promises were given even though it makes them look bad because the promises were broken (or about to be broken).

mopsi 1y ago
> Whose people you cite also happen to emigrate to the West or at least from Russia. Gorbachev and Yazov never emigrated. They both died in Moscow in the early 2020s. > Or very interested in not looking dumb after it turned out that they were fooled. In other words, what they say happen to make them look good. This is unfounded speculation. Shevardnadze has explained in detail how this narrative is a misunderstanding (or in many cases, a willful misrepresentation) of the 4+2 treaty. The main issue in early 1990 was the details of German reunification. After East and West Germany became a single state again, would Germany leave NATO? Would NATO be present only in West Germany, or in former East Germany as well? This was the contemporary context, since a unified Germany would share a long border with the Warsaw Pact. Things often claimed about "NATO promises" are actually right there, written down in articles 4 and 5 of the treaty. The treaty prohibited the stationing of non-German forces and military exercises in East Germany until the complete withdrawal of Soviet troops. Both Gorbachev and Shevardnadze have said that NATO kept its promises and the agreement was concluded when the last Soviet forces left Germany in 1994. The treaty can be found here, scroll down for links to PDFs in multiple languages: https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=08000002800b8042&clang=_en https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000...
- drysine 1y ago
  >Gorbachev and Yazov never emigrated. Gorbachev used to live in Germany. [0] The rest of your comment is again a straw-man argument - Matlock (American ambassador to the USSR at that time) was talking about promises not given in a legally binding way and you are citing some treaty. [0] https://www.dw.com/ru/mihail-gorbacev-prodaet-bavarskuu-villu-s-vidom-na-alpy/a-37687143 https://www.dw.com/ru/mihail-gorbacev-prodaet-bavarskuu-vill...