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It's always the same argument. If you are world-class talent (someone who gets to Oxford), you should be capable of similar results as kids from independent sc

It's always the same argument. If you are world-class talent (someone who gets to Oxford), you should be capable of similar results as kids from independent schools. Like Joe Seddon did (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Seddon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Seddon - growing up with a single parent mom, working as a therapist in NHS). It isn't fair to ask ones to have 4A* and others to have just 3As. Only 1 in 2600 gets 4 A. And 1 in 83 gets 3 As. Making it 31 easier for people from state school is discrimination so bad, it should be illegal.

asib 1y ago
If it's so much easier to get into Oxbridge from a state school, why do you think people with the means send their kids to private school? They'd save so much money not doing so.
- misnome 1y ago
  Maybe they aren’t doing it purely as a numerical exercise to get into a specific university 13 years in the future?
- petesergeant 1y ago
  Most people sending their kids to the very best British schools are not expecting their kids to get into Oxbridge.
- concernedParty 1y ago
  There is a growing number of parents who, because of this exact overt and known discrimination against applicants from private schools, will first send their kids to elite private primary schools and then they switch them to the best secondary state schools they can find, using the money to supplement their education with private one-to-one tutors. This is an entirely expected outcome. Water will find a way to ground.
  - patanegra 1y ago
    Oh yes, I have kids in a prep school where half of the class goes to Eton, and the rest to Winchester, Harrow, Seven Oaks, Derby... Now, for the past few years, almost no parents want to send kids to Eton. They know how much are those kids discriminated against. It's better to send them to a school with lower profile.
  - asib 1y ago
    Doesn’t this prove the reason for the existence of the disparity? The wealthy kid’s parents want tutors to supplement the education they get from their state school. I understand an argument saying people will game this setup, but arguing that state school kids are not disadvantaged is indefensible, in my opinion
    - oh_fiddlesticks 1y ago
      There is absolutely a disparity between private and state teaching quality. I don't think thats an objectionable statement. Also, while not wanting to paint with a broad brush, people I know who work in state run schools are aware of how many other challenges students must face when they're on school grounds. They're fighting more than the test criteria, they're fighting their peers, outside criminal influences, prostitution, drug dealing etc etc. Meanwhile this stuff is rarer and more swiftly dealt with at private schools because the parents won't have it, and they pay the bills and have some leverage, the financial incentives are different in the model and it shows. I personally don't have a problem with loosening the grade criteria, even if it's gamed, the candidates are all interviewed anyway, it's not like a free pass, more an opportunity.
abxyz 1y ago
At my secondary school it wasn't possible to do more than 6 GCSEs vs. many of the most academically gifted independent school attendees who obtained at least double that number of GCSEs. At A level my secondary school couldn't accommodate most A level subjects: students were sent off to many different schools for different subjects, and forced to choose which A levels they did based on complicated scheduling arrangements. The only reason some of them could afford to do A levels was because of the £30 benefits payments they received which covered their transport costs (I believe it was called EMA (something like "Education Maintenance Allowance") at the time, but it was a long time ago). As far as I recall, the maximum possible qualifications from my secondary school was 6 A* GCSEs and 3 A levels.
ceejayoz 1y ago
> Only 1 in 2600 gets 4 A. > And 1 in 83 gets 3 As. And what if that’s not always an indication of which person is smarter?
- rayiner 1y ago
  But we know that it’s true. That’s why we have been using objective metrics like test scores for millennia, across societies are different as China, India, and Britain.
  - Latty 1y ago
    Your best argument is "we've done it for a long time, so it can't be wrong"? Quite the contrary: there is a long history of "objective" tests being shown to be deeply flawed and biased towards certain factors (often cultural and class based), we explicitly know it isn't the case that test scores are purely about some innate intelligence characteristic: there is a reason the rich spend a lot of money to raise their children's scores. My secondary school claimed to have the best results for Business Studies A-levels in the country. They achieved this by taking the pre-released case study, writing every possible question they could think of about the study, writing model answers, and telling the students to memorise them. The idea that these scores represent some innate intelligence of the student is obviously nonsense if you interact with the system at all.
    - rayiner 1y ago
      The notion that the British A levels have “cultural bias” is absurd, given that Asians outperform white British: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/a-levels-apprenticeships-further-education/students-aged-16-to-18-achieving-3-a-grades-or-better-at-a-level/latest/ https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education.... In the U.S., research shows the SAT is highly predictive of college performance: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/education-week-educational-assessments https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/education-week-educatio... (summarizing research).
      - 1y ago
noelwelsh 1y ago
> In total, almost half (49.4 per cent) of A-level entries at independent schools this year were awarded A or A*, compared with less than a quarter (22.3 per cent) at comprehensives. https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/exams-qualifications/a-level-results-gap-widens-between-state-and-private/ https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/exams-qualifications/a-... Much more on the disparity if one cares to search.

asib 1y ago

If it's so much easier to get into Oxbridge from a state school, why do you think people with the means send their kids to private school? They'd save so much money not doing so.

misnome 1y ago
Maybe they aren’t doing it purely as a numerical exercise to get into a specific university 13 years in the future?
petesergeant 1y ago
Most people sending their kids to the very best British schools are not expecting their kids to get into Oxbridge.
concernedParty 1y ago
There is a growing number of parents who, because of this exact overt and known discrimination against applicants from private schools, will first send their kids to elite private primary schools and then they switch them to the best secondary state schools they can find, using the money to supplement their education with private one-to-one tutors. This is an entirely expected outcome. Water will find a way to ground.
- patanegra 1y ago
  Oh yes, I have kids in a prep school where half of the class goes to Eton, and the rest to Winchester, Harrow, Seven Oaks, Derby... Now, for the past few years, almost no parents want to send kids to Eton. They know how much are those kids discriminated against. It's better to send them to a school with lower profile.
- asib 1y ago
  Doesn’t this prove the reason for the existence of the disparity? The wealthy kid’s parents want tutors to supplement the education they get from their state school. I understand an argument saying people will game this setup, but arguing that state school kids are not disadvantaged is indefensible, in my opinion
  - oh_fiddlesticks 1y ago
    There is absolutely a disparity between private and state teaching quality. I don't think thats an objectionable statement. Also, while not wanting to paint with a broad brush, people I know who work in state run schools are aware of how many other challenges students must face when they're on school grounds. They're fighting more than the test criteria, they're fighting their peers, outside criminal influences, prostitution, drug dealing etc etc. Meanwhile this stuff is rarer and more swiftly dealt with at private schools because the parents won't have it, and they pay the bills and have some leverage, the financial incentives are different in the model and it shows. I personally don't have a problem with loosening the grade criteria, even if it's gamed, the candidates are all interviewed anyway, it's not like a free pass, more an opportunity.

abxyz 1y ago

At my secondary school it wasn't possible to do more than 6 GCSEs vs. many of the most academically gifted independent school attendees who obtained at least double that number of GCSEs. At A level my secondary school couldn't accommodate most A level subjects: students were sent off to many different schools for different subjects, and forced to choose which A levels they did based on complicated scheduling arrangements. The only reason some of them could afford to do A levels was because of the £30 benefits payments they received which covered their transport costs (I believe it was called EMA (something like "Education Maintenance Allowance") at the time, but it was a long time ago). As far as I recall, the maximum possible qualifications from my secondary school was 6 A* GCSEs and 3 A levels.

ceejayoz 1y ago

> Only 1 in 2600 gets 4 A. > And 1 in 83 gets 3 As. And what if that’s not always an indication of which person is smarter?

rayiner 1y ago
But we know that it’s true. That’s why we have been using objective metrics like test scores for millennia, across societies are different as China, India, and Britain.
- Latty 1y ago
  Your best argument is "we've done it for a long time, so it can't be wrong"? Quite the contrary: there is a long history of "objective" tests being shown to be deeply flawed and biased towards certain factors (often cultural and class based), we explicitly know it isn't the case that test scores are purely about some innate intelligence characteristic: there is a reason the rich spend a lot of money to raise their children's scores. My secondary school claimed to have the best results for Business Studies A-levels in the country. They achieved this by taking the pre-released case study, writing every possible question they could think of about the study, writing model answers, and telling the students to memorise them. The idea that these scores represent some innate intelligence of the student is obviously nonsense if you interact with the system at all.
  - rayiner 1y ago
    The notion that the British A levels have “cultural bias” is absurd, given that Asians outperform white British: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/a-levels-apprenticeships-further-education/students-aged-16-to-18-achieving-3-a-grades-or-better-at-a-level/latest/ https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education.... In the U.S., research shows the SAT is highly predictive of college performance: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/education-week-educational-assessments https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/education-week-educatio... (summarizing research).
    - 1y ago

noelwelsh 1y ago

> In total, almost half (49.4 per cent) of A-level entries at independent schools this year were awarded A or A*, compared with less than a quarter (22.3 per cent) at comprehensives. https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/exams-qualifications/a-level-results-gap-widens-between-state-and-private/ https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/exams-qualifications/a-... Much more on the disparity if one cares to search.