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Step 1 says to brew tea and shows people sitting down. In most cases, this to me is a stand-up antipattern. The reason it's called a "stand-up" is because every

Step 1 says to brew tea and shows people sitting down. In most cases, this to me is a stand-up antipattern. The reason it's called a "stand-up" is because everyone does actually stand up, which encourages everyone to make it finish as quickly as possible. Sitting down and brewing tea might work for people well versed in agile, but for most places "doing agile", it smells of Agile Theatre. Standup meeting: Do a quick daily check, offline any conversations that need to happen between individuals, and get on with the job.

tosh 14y ago
Hey Michael, I absolutely agree that the "slowing down" and tea ritual in front of the stand-up can potential be dangerous for speed and terseness if you aren't conscious about keeping the meeting to the point. I can understand how it might sound controversial in the blog post. That said it worked great for us to have it in place as a buffer before the actual meeting. I've seen teams that were very disciplined in being prepared that didn't need an explicit buffer for getting into the moment or being on time before the meeting. Our "Stand-Ups" definitely got more focused and fluent since we have it in place. Definitely sounds counter-intuitive :) Thanks for sharing your experience!
- mmahemoff 14y ago
  Hi Tosh, that's good it's working. Agile is definitely about being pragmatic and doing what works for you...I'm really just talking about the default position as I've worked with people who assume this is the standard agile way to do a standup. It doesn't apply in your case.
darkxanthos 14y ago
If it works for them then they're doing "Agile" perfectly. The point is optimizing value and that's individual to every team/company. Ironically, this dogma is what the founders of Agile were trying to avoid.
- mmahemoff 14y ago
  That's why I say this can work for people well versed in agile. In my experience, most people practicing agile aren't well-versed in it and would benefit from applying it to the letter first, then modifying it to their needs.
- tcharron 14y ago
  "If it works for them then they're doing "Agile" perfectly." is a very dangerous statement. By that logic than doing anything is doing Agile and we know this is not true. If it were true, you could do waterfall and if that works for you, then it's Agile. Which is just silly. This is not to say that the stand-up must be exactly as described in Scrum or elsewhere, but the key is that you have the Agile mindset and understand why you're doing the thing you're doing. For example, the stand-up is a short and focused meeting where teams co-ordinate and get on the same page (which means it's NOT a status meeting). We stand to keep the meeting short and focused. If you keep the meeting short and focused, then it doesn't matter if you're standing or sitting. Far too often, teams choose not to stand, lose sight of keeping the meeting short and focused, and transition to having long, boring, status meetings that aren't very useful. If you choose to have tea before your stand-up, then have a short and focused meeting where everyone gets on the same page, then you're fine. If you're having wandering conversations that go nowhere or on wild tangents and never really seem to accomplish much of anything, then you've probably missed the point. I have a video course dedicated entirely to the daily stand-up, good and bad habits, and how you can use Improv to get everyone focused, energized, and listening before the meeting. You can check it out here: http://ow.ly/dOmJJ http://ow.ly/dOmJJ
  - tcharron 14y ago
    Sorry, original owly link was broken. Try: http://ow.ly/dOqfI http://ow.ly/dOqfI
jebblue 14y ago
Some people are older and have old injuries, standing in one place is agonizing. Some are in wheel chairs. Standing is an anti-pattern to the mostly shy, quiet nature of techies in the first place. Standing for a meeting sounds like something thought up by someone in perfect health and probably an extrovert, marketer who thought he/she was a coder. Moving on with the analysis, Agile with an uppercase A is an anti-pattern to how humans live and work in the first place. The idea of sprinting makes sense when you're within reach of the goal; not for the entire cycle of development unless what is being developed only takes 3 weeks from the start to the finish. We need common sense back in the software world.
- cstejerean 14y ago
  People who have injuries or are otherwise unable to stand can certainly sit. The point of standing however is specifically because it gets uncomfortable when you do it for too long. This prevent standups from turning into 30 minute or longer meetings.
  - jebblue 14y ago
    >> People who have injuries or are otherwise unable to stand can certainly sit. How do you think that makes us feel?
    - tcharron 14y ago
      That would certainly be something to bring up with your team if you do regular retrospectives. The purpose of standing is to keep the meeting short and focused. Can you think of alternative ways that your team can ensure that the meeting is short and focused that doesn't require standing? If so, suggest them (or see what your team members suggest) and try them out!
      - jebblue 14y ago
        I think you are missing the point that I'm making which is quite simple. Requiring people to stand up is a discriminatory practice and that puts companies at significant legal risk. Recommendation? We sit and the meetings are short or long or don't happen at all on an as needed basis. Don't force your cure on those of us who do not have your ill.
Spooky23 14y ago
You stand up to get folks out of their typical environment (cube, conference room) and to get their ears open. The point isn't to stand in an upright position, it's to communicate. At a company I worked for a few years ago, we did "stand up" type meetings in a park across the street, or on a balcony. We were mostly sitting down.

tosh 14y ago

Hey Michael, I absolutely agree that the "slowing down" and tea ritual in front of the stand-up can potential be dangerous for speed and terseness if you aren't conscious about keeping the meeting to the point. I can understand how it might sound controversial in the blog post. That said it worked great for us to have it in place as a buffer before the actual meeting. I've seen teams that were very disciplined in being prepared that didn't need an explicit buffer for getting into the moment or being on time before the meeting. Our "Stand-Ups" definitely got more focused and fluent since we have it in place. Definitely sounds counter-intuitive :) Thanks for sharing your experience!

mmahemoff 14y ago
Hi Tosh, that's good it's working. Agile is definitely about being pragmatic and doing what works for you...I'm really just talking about the default position as I've worked with people who assume this is the standard agile way to do a standup. It doesn't apply in your case.

darkxanthos 14y ago

If it works for them then they're doing "Agile" perfectly. The point is optimizing value and that's individual to every team/company. Ironically, this dogma is what the founders of Agile were trying to avoid.

mmahemoff 14y ago
That's why I say this can work for people well versed in agile. In my experience, most people practicing agile aren't well-versed in it and would benefit from applying it to the letter first, then modifying it to their needs.
tcharron 14y ago
"If it works for them then they're doing "Agile" perfectly." is a very dangerous statement. By that logic than doing anything is doing Agile and we know this is not true. If it were true, you could do waterfall and if that works for you, then it's Agile. Which is just silly. This is not to say that the stand-up must be exactly as described in Scrum or elsewhere, but the key is that you have the Agile mindset and understand why you're doing the thing you're doing. For example, the stand-up is a short and focused meeting where teams co-ordinate and get on the same page (which means it's NOT a status meeting). We stand to keep the meeting short and focused. If you keep the meeting short and focused, then it doesn't matter if you're standing or sitting. Far too often, teams choose not to stand, lose sight of keeping the meeting short and focused, and transition to having long, boring, status meetings that aren't very useful. If you choose to have tea before your stand-up, then have a short and focused meeting where everyone gets on the same page, then you're fine. If you're having wandering conversations that go nowhere or on wild tangents and never really seem to accomplish much of anything, then you've probably missed the point. I have a video course dedicated entirely to the daily stand-up, good and bad habits, and how you can use Improv to get everyone focused, energized, and listening before the meeting. You can check it out here: http://ow.ly/dOmJJ http://ow.ly/dOmJJ
- tcharron 14y ago
  Sorry, original owly link was broken. Try: http://ow.ly/dOqfI http://ow.ly/dOqfI

jebblue 14y ago

Some people are older and have old injuries, standing in one place is agonizing. Some are in wheel chairs. Standing is an anti-pattern to the mostly shy, quiet nature of techies in the first place. Standing for a meeting sounds like something thought up by someone in perfect health and probably an extrovert, marketer who thought he/she was a coder. Moving on with the analysis, Agile with an uppercase A is an anti-pattern to how humans live and work in the first place. The idea of sprinting makes sense when you're within reach of the goal; not for the entire cycle of development unless what is being developed only takes 3 weeks from the start to the finish. We need common sense back in the software world.

cstejerean 14y ago
People who have injuries or are otherwise unable to stand can certainly sit. The point of standing however is specifically because it gets uncomfortable when you do it for too long. This prevent standups from turning into 30 minute or longer meetings.
- jebblue 14y ago
  >> People who have injuries or are otherwise unable to stand can certainly sit. How do you think that makes us feel?
  - tcharron 14y ago
    That would certainly be something to bring up with your team if you do regular retrospectives. The purpose of standing is to keep the meeting short and focused. Can you think of alternative ways that your team can ensure that the meeting is short and focused that doesn't require standing? If so, suggest them (or see what your team members suggest) and try them out!
    - jebblue 14y ago
      I think you are missing the point that I'm making which is quite simple. Requiring people to stand up is a discriminatory practice and that puts companies at significant legal risk. Recommendation? We sit and the meetings are short or long or don't happen at all on an as needed basis. Don't force your cure on those of us who do not have your ill.

Spooky23 14y ago

You stand up to get folks out of their typical environment (cube, conference room) and to get their ears open. The point isn't to stand in an upright position, it's to communicate. At a company I worked for a few years ago, we did "stand up" type meetings in a park across the street, or on a balcony. We were mostly sitting down.