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>To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. Or ABB for the incoming president of the Oxford Union, the one who chee

by TMWNN 1y ago

>To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. Or ABB for the incoming president of the Oxford Union, the one who cheered Charlie Kirk's murder a few months after debating him in person. <https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2025/09/oxford-union-president-elect-my-words-were-no-less-insensitive-than-charlie-kirks https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2025/09/oxfo...>

afavour 1y ago
It would be wonderful if we could, just once, have a conversation about something happening outside the US without bringing in US culture war talking points.
- TMWNN 1y ago
  Publicly cheering Kirk's murder is what made Abaraonye notable. I provided a citation for the ABB grades, which is relevant to the comment I replied to.
  - afavour 1y ago
    > I provided a citation for the ABB grades, which is relevant to the comment I replied to. An extremely tenuous connection. Abaraonye (and even less his words on Kirk) had absolutely no relevance to the criteria by which the Times assesses universities, thus had no impact on Oxfords placement, thus has no relevance to the conversation.
    - TMWNN 1y ago
      Patanegra wrote: > To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. In reply, I provided a recently prominent example of someone recently admitted to Oxford with lower than 3 A grades on the A-Levels. I only mentioned Kirk's murder as context because, as I keep repeating, the person a) only became prominent because b) he publicly cheered said murder c) after debating Kirk in person. I don't know what else you can ask for here.
      - afavour 1y ago
        > I don't know what else you can ask for here. Perhaps a demonstration of any kind of connection between his grades and his views on Kirk? The implication in what you're saying is that an ABB student is saying bad things than a 4 A* student would never say. I'd love to see anything backing that up. There are plenty of ABB students who said nothing of that nature and I'd wager you could find 4 A* students (albeit with a lower profile) who did. Absent that connection it just looks very much like you're using the person's grades as a tenuous excuse to bring them up.
        programjames 1y ago
        I believe you're being purposefully dense here. I get it, and probably do the same sometimes, but the connection is pretty obvious: someone gets in (allegedly) due to ideological fit instead of merit, and then becomes one of the most prominent voices for that ideology at the campus. It shows "wokism" has finally solved the reproduction crisis, and for people opposed to certain aspects (like affirmative action), that's pretty worrying.
        afavour 1y ago
        But that isn’t a connection. It’s a coincidence. Where is the evidence that an Oxford with only 4 A* students would not have any such language on its campus? There is none. If I argued that his comments were an obvious sign that Oxford needs to stop admitting people whose last name starts with A you’d rightly say I was being absurd. But basing the argument around his grades is no more valid. “allegedly due to ideological fit” says it all. We’re just making stuff up to fit preconceived notions.
        programjames 1y ago
        If you already believe he got in on merits, then obviously this is all a coincidence. But obviously the other guy you're arguing with believes he got in due to ideological fit, so it's no coincidence he espouses the ideology. You're dismissing your antagonist's cruxes as if they never existed. That's so rude.
- ralusek 1y ago
  > incoming president of Oxford Union > debated Kirk [at Oxford] > cheered assassination of Kirk, which happened within months of debate Is this really dragging American culture war into things? This is clearly relevant to Oxford
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    Anyone logical knows it’s relevant, but people putting their head in the sand about the most significant political assassination in over 50 years isn’t a surprise.
- znpy 1y ago
  As somebody that's not from the UK and not from the US, knowing this guy cheered the murder of Charlie Kirk gives me a strong hint about the kind of person it's being talked about. So yes, in that sense it's an useful piece of information.
  - croes 1y ago
    Given the violence Kirk paved the way and how he shrugged off gun related deaths as necessary evil for the 2nd amendment, I see no great difference in unsympathetic behavior of both.
  - afavour 1y ago
    > gives me a strong hint about the kind of person it's being talked about. There was no person being talked about, though. This is a discussion about Oxford's university ranking. The GP brought up a person entirely irrelevant to that discussion and informed us of his views on a topic that's also irrelevant to the discussion.
    - cvwright 1y ago
      How are the grades of a student in a prestigious position at Oxford not relevant to the academic reputation of Oxford?
      - afavour 1y ago
        My objection was not the student in question being mentioned. It was why he was mentioned: his views on Charlie Kirk, a US culture war topic that has nothing to do with the discussion and nothing to do with the student’s admission grades.
        mensetmanusman 1y ago
        Oxfords name is currently being trashed globally because of this though. It sucks, but it must be dealt with. Celebrating violence against free speech doesn’t make sense for Oxford’s name to stand behind.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  The current president of a verbal debate club representing Oxford cheering political violence against someone he just debated is actually quite relevant. The society leaders decided it’s okay for him to do that because of racism based on their most recent response.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
croes 1y ago
Where is his reaction different to Kirk‘s statement that some gun deaths are a necessary evil for the „god given right“ of the 2nd amendment? Both seem to have lost basic human empathy. Shall we ask the parents of the victims of the school shootings? BTW why is a god given right not mentioned in the bible?
- programjames 1y ago
  Clearly you need to reread The Bible: > To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one 'will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery'—just as I have received authority from my Father. (Revelation 2:26–27) Any good Sanctuarian[^1] would know this refers to the AR-15, and Americans' right to bear arms. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Iron_Ministries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Iron_Ministries
dan-robertson 1y ago
Sometimes colleges make deliberately easy offers for students they like, or they later accept students who did not meet the criteria that were set (if you set offers such that fewer students pass than you have places for, it is much easier to control class sizes – look at the chaos with Covid grade inflation). So I think it’s wrong to assume that the offer made to someone being high is a particularly strong signal for how clever they are. Clearly this PPE student has some talent for politics to be elected president of one of the more prestigious societies, so it seems right for him to have been given a place.

by TMWNN 1y ago

afavour 1y ago

It would be wonderful if we could, just once, have a conversation about something happening outside the US without bringing in US culture war talking points.

TMWNN 1y ago
Publicly cheering Kirk's murder is what made Abaraonye notable. I provided a citation for the ABB grades, which is relevant to the comment I replied to.
- afavour 1y ago
  > I provided a citation for the ABB grades, which is relevant to the comment I replied to. An extremely tenuous connection. Abaraonye (and even less his words on Kirk) had absolutely no relevance to the criteria by which the Times assesses universities, thus had no impact on Oxfords placement, thus has no relevance to the conversation.
  - TMWNN 1y ago
    Patanegra wrote: > To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. In reply, I provided a recently prominent example of someone recently admitted to Oxford with lower than 3 A grades on the A-Levels. I only mentioned Kirk's murder as context because, as I keep repeating, the person a) only became prominent because b) he publicly cheered said murder c) after debating Kirk in person. I don't know what else you can ask for here.
    - afavour 1y ago
      > I don't know what else you can ask for here. Perhaps a demonstration of any kind of connection between his grades and his views on Kirk? The implication in what you're saying is that an ABB student is saying bad things than a 4 A* student would never say. I'd love to see anything backing that up. There are plenty of ABB students who said nothing of that nature and I'd wager you could find 4 A* students (albeit with a lower profile) who did. Absent that connection it just looks very much like you're using the person's grades as a tenuous excuse to bring them up.
      - programjames 1y ago
        I believe you're being purposefully dense here. I get it, and probably do the same sometimes, but the connection is pretty obvious: someone gets in (allegedly) due to ideological fit instead of merit, and then becomes one of the most prominent voices for that ideology at the campus. It shows "wokism" has finally solved the reproduction crisis, and for people opposed to certain aspects (like affirmative action), that's pretty worrying.
        afavour 1y ago
        But that isn’t a connection. It’s a coincidence. Where is the evidence that an Oxford with only 4 A* students would not have any such language on its campus? There is none. If I argued that his comments were an obvious sign that Oxford needs to stop admitting people whose last name starts with A you’d rightly say I was being absurd. But basing the argument around his grades is no more valid. “allegedly due to ideological fit” says it all. We’re just making stuff up to fit preconceived notions.
        programjames 1y ago
        If you already believe he got in on merits, then obviously this is all a coincidence. But obviously the other guy you're arguing with believes he got in due to ideological fit, so it's no coincidence he espouses the ideology. You're dismissing your antagonist's cruxes as if they never existed. That's so rude.
ralusek 1y ago
> incoming president of Oxford Union > debated Kirk [at Oxford] > cheered assassination of Kirk, which happened within months of debate Is this really dragging American culture war into things? This is clearly relevant to Oxford
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  Anyone logical knows it’s relevant, but people putting their head in the sand about the most significant political assassination in over 50 years isn’t a surprise.
znpy 1y ago
As somebody that's not from the UK and not from the US, knowing this guy cheered the murder of Charlie Kirk gives me a strong hint about the kind of person it's being talked about. So yes, in that sense it's an useful piece of information.
- croes 1y ago
  Given the violence Kirk paved the way and how he shrugged off gun related deaths as necessary evil for the 2nd amendment, I see no great difference in unsympathetic behavior of both.
- afavour 1y ago
  > gives me a strong hint about the kind of person it's being talked about. There was no person being talked about, though. This is a discussion about Oxford's university ranking. The GP brought up a person entirely irrelevant to that discussion and informed us of his views on a topic that's also irrelevant to the discussion.
  - cvwright 1y ago
    How are the grades of a student in a prestigious position at Oxford not relevant to the academic reputation of Oxford?
    - afavour 1y ago
      My objection was not the student in question being mentioned. It was why he was mentioned: his views on Charlie Kirk, a US culture war topic that has nothing to do with the discussion and nothing to do with the student’s admission grades.
      - mensetmanusman 1y ago
        Oxfords name is currently being trashed globally because of this though. It sucks, but it must be dealt with. Celebrating violence against free speech doesn’t make sense for Oxford’s name to stand behind.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
The current president of a verbal debate club representing Oxford cheering political violence against someone he just debated is actually quite relevant. The society leaders decided it’s okay for him to do that because of racism based on their most recent response.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

croes 1y ago

Where is his reaction different to Kirk‘s statement that some gun deaths are a necessary evil for the „god given right“ of the 2nd amendment? Both seem to have lost basic human empathy. Shall we ask the parents of the victims of the school shootings? BTW why is a god given right not mentioned in the bible?

programjames 1y ago
Clearly you need to reread The Bible: > To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one 'will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery'—just as I have received authority from my Father. (Revelation 2:26–27) Any good Sanctuarian[^1] would know this refers to the AR-15, and Americans' right to bear arms. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Iron_Ministries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Iron_Ministries

dan-robertson 1y ago

Sometimes colleges make deliberately easy offers for students they like, or they later accept students who did not meet the criteria that were set (if you set offers such that fewer students pass than you have places for, it is much easier to control class sizes – look at the chaos with Covid grade inflation). So I think it’s wrong to assume that the offer made to someone being high is a particularly strong signal for how clever they are. Clearly this PPE student has some talent for politics to be elected president of one of the more prestigious societies, so it seems right for him to have been given a place.