4 ms·

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK would not take on the level of student debt required to study in the US, the sums of money required are vastly, vastly different between the two countries. Sounds like PG has a hobby horse he very much wants to ride no matter what the facts show.

ceejayoz 1y ago
Not to mention the US administration’s a) war on said schools and b) immigration mayhem.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
geremiiah 1y ago
In British English, "middle class" refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. In American English, if I understand correctly, everyone who works is considered middle class.
- walthamstow 1y ago
  I think I read that US middle class are people who only have to work one job
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 1y ago
    Yeah having a single full time job but not being part of the executive class is a decent definition. It's much more wide than the UK's usage for sure.
- toast0 1y ago
  In America, we have a classless society and everyone claims to be middle class.
  - yndoendo 1y ago
    USA class system is based on income ranges. USA is also segregated by income and wealth.
- dan-robertson 1y ago
  I think usage in the UK can vary a lot. And different people may mean anything from the haute bourgeoisie to something much broader including a majority of the population. Another thing is that obviously class in the UK is a social distinction and includes a lot more than just income or wealth brackets.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  The beauty of the term middle class is that it can be whatever the writer wants it to be, including leaving it up the reader’s imagination.
  - achenet 1y ago
    indeed, I'm personally fond of using it to disparage things I don't like. It's a most excellent insult. You get the implied snobbery of an upper-class person looking down on their inferiors, whilst also maintaining some street cred via not insulting the painfully poor. examples: "stupid middle class French boys" "god-awful, self-indulgent prose that only the most basic of middle-class housewives could appreciate" "a speech reeking of vapid middle-class cliches" ...
- leoedin 1y ago
  I’m not sure Paul Graham’s use of “middle class” matches the colloquial one here in the UK. The students who are not getting in to Oxbridge because of their background are broadly privately educated. I don’t think it’s controversial to say that Oxbridge has historically admitted a lot of kids from quite a small group of high cost private schools. The fact they’re adjusting their intake to somewhat reduce that is something to be celebrated. Unless you’re a very wealthy person with kids at an expensive private school in southern England hoping that they’ll get admitted to Oxbridge, of course.
- KaiserPro 1y ago
  > refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. Class isn't tied to money as much as the US. For example, I grew up poor (as in eligible for free school meals in the 90s poor) however I was one of the posher kids in the school. Class is fucking hard to explain definitively.
- Earw0rm 1y ago
  Who still can't afford US universities, as UK professionals are (excepting the very top executives, public servants, finance and legal professionals, of whom there are relatively few) paid a lot less than the US equivalent. UK middle class also includes university lecturers, teachers, various health professionals, graphic designers and so on, most of whom make less than 100k USD/year and some not much more than 50k.
scrlk 1y ago
Average student debt is £53k (~$71k USD): https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01079/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... Given the disparity in middle-class household incomes between the UK and the US, I suspect a majority of UK middle-class students would be eligible for some form of financial aid from US universities (assuming Oxbridge vs US equivalents with need-blind + full-need international admissions), meaning their net cost to attend could be lower than studying in the UK.
- afavour 1y ago
  > I would suspect that the majority of UK middle class students would be eligible for some form of financial aid at US schools Very unlikely, most financial aid is not available to international students.
- Ar-Curunir 1y ago
  Very few schools give international students any aid.
- yardie 1y ago
  Merit-based, in a lot of cases certainly. But need-based, you’re there to subsidize the university and not the other way around.
- KaiserPro 1y ago
  But the difference between UK student debt (basically a regressive time limited tax) and the US version of student debt (actual loan that will fuck you up) is key here. I don't think its possible to have a full student loan from the UK and study abroad the whole time. (you can do a year abroad though)

ceejayoz 1y ago

Not to mention the US administration’s a) war on said schools and b) immigration mayhem.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

geremiiah 1y ago

In British English, "middle class" refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. In American English, if I understand correctly, everyone who works is considered middle class.

walthamstow 1y ago
I think I read that US middle class are people who only have to work one job
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 1y ago
  Yeah having a single full time job but not being part of the executive class is a decent definition. It's much more wide than the UK's usage for sure.
toast0 1y ago
In America, we have a classless society and everyone claims to be middle class.
- yndoendo 1y ago
  USA class system is based on income ranges. USA is also segregated by income and wealth.
dan-robertson 1y ago
I think usage in the UK can vary a lot. And different people may mean anything from the haute bourgeoisie to something much broader including a majority of the population. Another thing is that obviously class in the UK is a social distinction and includes a lot more than just income or wealth brackets.
lotsofpulp 1y ago
The beauty of the term middle class is that it can be whatever the writer wants it to be, including leaving it up the reader’s imagination.
- achenet 1y ago
  indeed, I'm personally fond of using it to disparage things I don't like. It's a most excellent insult. You get the implied snobbery of an upper-class person looking down on their inferiors, whilst also maintaining some street cred via not insulting the painfully poor. examples: "stupid middle class French boys" "god-awful, self-indulgent prose that only the most basic of middle-class housewives could appreciate" "a speech reeking of vapid middle-class cliches" ...
leoedin 1y ago
I’m not sure Paul Graham’s use of “middle class” matches the colloquial one here in the UK. The students who are not getting in to Oxbridge because of their background are broadly privately educated. I don’t think it’s controversial to say that Oxbridge has historically admitted a lot of kids from quite a small group of high cost private schools. The fact they’re adjusting their intake to somewhat reduce that is something to be celebrated. Unless you’re a very wealthy person with kids at an expensive private school in southern England hoping that they’ll get admitted to Oxbridge, of course.
KaiserPro 1y ago
> refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. Class isn't tied to money as much as the US. For example, I grew up poor (as in eligible for free school meals in the 90s poor) however I was one of the posher kids in the school. Class is fucking hard to explain definitively.
Earw0rm 1y ago
Who still can't afford US universities, as UK professionals are (excepting the very top executives, public servants, finance and legal professionals, of whom there are relatively few) paid a lot less than the US equivalent. UK middle class also includes university lecturers, teachers, various health professionals, graphic designers and so on, most of whom make less than 100k USD/year and some not much more than 50k.

scrlk 1y ago

Average student debt is £53k (~$71k USD): https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01079/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... Given the disparity in middle-class household incomes between the UK and the US, I suspect a majority of UK middle-class students would be eligible for some form of financial aid from US universities (assuming Oxbridge vs US equivalents with need-blind + full-need international admissions), meaning their net cost to attend could be lower than studying in the UK.

afavour 1y ago
> I would suspect that the majority of UK middle class students would be eligible for some form of financial aid at US schools Very unlikely, most financial aid is not available to international students.
Ar-Curunir 1y ago
Very few schools give international students any aid.
yardie 1y ago
Merit-based, in a lot of cases certainly. But need-based, you’re there to subsidize the university and not the other way around.
KaiserPro 1y ago
But the difference between UK student debt (basically a regressive time limited tax) and the US version of student debt (actual loan that will fuck you up) is key here. I don't think its possible to have a full student loan from the UK and study abroad the whole time. (you can do a year abroad though)