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> why did you end with such intolerance for people who live in the suburbs? My hostility is towards people who claim to prefer to live in the suburbs, but do n

> why did you end with such intolerance for people who live in the suburbs? My hostility is towards people who claim to prefer to live in the suburbs, but do not want to pay for the privilege. Show me people that say "Yeah, I won't mind having higher property taxes, extra fees to keep my many cars in the garage and have to pay full price for the extended infrastructure (sewer, roads, water, electricity lines, etc) just so that I don't have to live among those poor city-dwellers" and I'll be totally fine with their choices.

skybrian 1y ago
Is your lifestyle subsidized too? How do you know? I suspect that even people with strong opinions have little understanding about infrastructure costs and who is subsidizing what. I’m unwilling to take this on faith - it seems like there need to be financial deep dives.
- rglullis 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - prasadjoglekar 1y ago
    I live in the suburbs of NYC. All of NYC's drinking water is stored in our backyards. So much so that the NYPD patrols this area, 90 miles outside their geography. The math has certainly not been done. There are no cities without suburbs. For food and water.
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - rglullis 1y ago
      > because of style of community they want to own their home in? No, I do not care about their choices, provided they are willing to bear all costs from it. The problem is not living in the suburbs. The problem is affluent people that have their lifestyle subsidized by poorer people living close to the city center. Also, it's virtually impossible to claim that people want to live like that in the US, because most places have zoning laws that simply forbid the emergence of any other alternative. Suburbs in Germany are smaller, less dense versions of the urban center, but they are not devoid of life. They are still walkable, they still have local shops, they do not make cars a requirement for everyone, kids do not need to be driven around anywhere, etc. You can bet that if more people in the US could come to visit they would rather live like that than in the traditional cul-de-sacs/picketed fence developments from American Suburbia.
      - ciupicri 1y ago
        Aren't those zoning laws created by people elected by the residents?
        rglullis 1y ago
        "Aren't those laws being lobbied by corporations who only fund the politicians that promise to keep things in their favor?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOttvpjJvAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOttvpjJvAo
        lupusreal 1y ago
        [flagged]
        Qwertious 1y ago
        The term "jaywalking" was invented by car companies in a political campaign to reframe the car deaths problem as the fault of pedestrians. You're conflating "the cause is unpopular" with "the cause organically became unpopular".
        ciupicri 1y ago
        What's stopping people from voting for "cyclist Joe" who promises to transform the city into new Amsterdam (no, not NYC :-) or new Berlin?
        rglullis 1y ago
        > What's stopping people from voting for "cyclist Joe" The corporations who are lobbying and funding the campaign of "Trucker Bob" and "Soccer Mom Susan".
        ciupicri 1y ago
        Nevertheless I thought that elections were free.
    - dang 1y ago
      > Your rhetoric sounds fascist. Please don't take HN threads into flamewar hell like this. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Your comment would be (mostly) fine without that bit. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Edit: we've had to ask you this several times already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44403432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44403432 (June 2025) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830571 (Oct 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41710557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41710557 (Oct 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852424 (July 2024)
luckylion 1y ago
You're living in Berlin, the city that is subsidized to the sum of 3.8bn Euros by the much more rural southern states. And yet somehow _they_ are the ones who don't want to pay their share? Berlin does things to people.
- rglullis 1y ago
  Way to miss the point, or are you trying to strawman the discussion? The argument is intra-municipalities, not intra-country. The argument is that people that live in the suburbs of a city end up costing more and paying less than the city-center counterparts. The richer people in the city do not pay proportionally to the cost they incur in the city's expenses, but when push comes to shove it's the poor people who are left with poor infrastructure, unmaintained roads, etc. (As for the discussion regarding Berlin getting subsidies from the south: I can not argue there, but I am pretty sure that what I am paying in taxes is vastly more than what I am getting in benefits and public services. Just like I am pretty sure that the 1000€/month I am sending to TK is to cover the cost of others. There isn't much more than I am supposed to do, is there?)
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  Berlin is essentially a micro-/city-state within Germany. It doesn't have any rural area, but it is surrounded by Brandenburg which has large rural areas. "[M]uch more rural southern states" - Do you mean Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg? Those are some of the richest states in Germany due to their enormous manufacturing industry. AFAIK: The provincial capital cities of Munich and Stuttgart both have decent public transport.
toast0 1y ago
Some of those don't make that much sense... Property tax eh? kind of depends on cost of the things that are paid for by property tax. Sometimes that'll be higher in urban and sometimes higher in rural. I don't know why I should pay extra fees to keep my many cars on my property... that's why I have my property. I don't mind license fees, and I grumble but don't mind that they're higher for my PHEV even though I don't drive it much or plug it in. If I was parking on public right of way, it might make sense to charge me per car, but my cars don't use shared resources when they sit at home, and I can only drive one at a time. Where can I live where I don't have to pay full price for extended infrastructure? That'd be great. Where I am, I have to pay my own way for my well and septic; if I wanted municipal of either, I'd have to pay for the build out to get it to my house, just like I did for muni fiber. The owners before me that had electricity hooked up must have paid the utility to extend it, and enhancements would be at my cost.

skybrian 1y ago

Is your lifestyle subsidized too? How do you know? I suspect that even people with strong opinions have little understanding about infrastructure costs and who is subsidizing what. I’m unwilling to take this on faith - it seems like there need to be financial deep dives.

rglullis 1y ago
[flagged]
- prasadjoglekar 1y ago
  I live in the suburbs of NYC. All of NYC's drinking water is stored in our backyards. So much so that the NYPD patrols this area, 90 miles outside their geography. The math has certainly not been done. There are no cities without suburbs. For food and water.
- lupusreal 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - rglullis 1y ago
    > because of style of community they want to own their home in? No, I do not care about their choices, provided they are willing to bear all costs from it. The problem is not living in the suburbs. The problem is affluent people that have their lifestyle subsidized by poorer people living close to the city center. Also, it's virtually impossible to claim that people want to live like that in the US, because most places have zoning laws that simply forbid the emergence of any other alternative. Suburbs in Germany are smaller, less dense versions of the urban center, but they are not devoid of life. They are still walkable, they still have local shops, they do not make cars a requirement for everyone, kids do not need to be driven around anywhere, etc. You can bet that if more people in the US could come to visit they would rather live like that than in the traditional cul-de-sacs/picketed fence developments from American Suburbia.
    - ciupicri 1y ago
      Aren't those zoning laws created by people elected by the residents?
      - rglullis 1y ago
        "Aren't those laws being lobbied by corporations who only fund the politicians that promise to keep things in their favor?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOttvpjJvAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOttvpjJvAo
        lupusreal 1y ago
        [flagged]
        Qwertious 1y ago
        The term "jaywalking" was invented by car companies in a political campaign to reframe the car deaths problem as the fault of pedestrians. You're conflating "the cause is unpopular" with "the cause organically became unpopular".
        ciupicri 1y ago
        What's stopping people from voting for "cyclist Joe" who promises to transform the city into new Amsterdam (no, not NYC :-) or new Berlin?
        rglullis 1y ago
        > What's stopping people from voting for "cyclist Joe" The corporations who are lobbying and funding the campaign of "Trucker Bob" and "Soccer Mom Susan".
        ciupicri 1y ago
        Nevertheless I thought that elections were free.
  - dang 1y ago
    > Your rhetoric sounds fascist. Please don't take HN threads into flamewar hell like this. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Your comment would be (mostly) fine without that bit. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Edit: we've had to ask you this several times already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44403432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44403432 (June 2025) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41830571 (Oct 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41710557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41710557 (Oct 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852424 (July 2024)

luckylion 1y ago

You're living in Berlin, the city that is subsidized to the sum of 3.8bn Euros by the much more rural southern states. And yet somehow _they_ are the ones who don't want to pay their share? Berlin does things to people.

rglullis 1y ago
Way to miss the point, or are you trying to strawman the discussion? The argument is intra-municipalities, not intra-country. The argument is that people that live in the suburbs of a city end up costing more and paying less than the city-center counterparts. The richer people in the city do not pay proportionally to the cost they incur in the city's expenses, but when push comes to shove it's the poor people who are left with poor infrastructure, unmaintained roads, etc. (As for the discussion regarding Berlin getting subsidies from the south: I can not argue there, but I am pretty sure that what I am paying in taxes is vastly more than what I am getting in benefits and public services. Just like I am pretty sure that the 1000€/month I am sending to TK is to cover the cost of others. There isn't much more than I am supposed to do, is there?)
throwaway2037 1y ago
Berlin is essentially a micro-/city-state within Germany. It doesn't have any rural area, but it is surrounded by Brandenburg which has large rural areas. "[M]uch more rural southern states" - Do you mean Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg? Those are some of the richest states in Germany due to their enormous manufacturing industry. AFAIK: The provincial capital cities of Munich and Stuttgart both have decent public transport.

toast0 1y ago

Some of those don't make that much sense... Property tax eh? kind of depends on cost of the things that are paid for by property tax. Sometimes that'll be higher in urban and sometimes higher in rural. I don't know why I should pay extra fees to keep my many cars on my property... that's why I have my property. I don't mind license fees, and I grumble but don't mind that they're higher for my PHEV even though I don't drive it much or plug it in. If I was parking on public right of way, it might make sense to charge me per car, but my cars don't use shared resources when they sit at home, and I can only drive one at a time. Where can I live where I don't have to pay full price for extended infrastructure? That'd be great. Where I am, I have to pay my own way for my well and septic; if I wanted municipal of either, I'd have to pay for the build out to get it to my house, just like I did for muni fiber. The owners before me that had electricity hooked up must have paid the utility to extend it, and enhancements would be at my cost.