4 ms·

I think the reality of what has gone on has several faces which are all worth thinking about: 1. A group of people that want to be different without harming an

I think the reality of what has gone on has several faces which are all worth thinking about: 1. A group of people that want to be different without harming anyone and be left alone 2. A group of people demanding certain specific and new legal rights with respect to how they are different 3. A group of people advocating for new social and linguistic norms around said difference 3. A group of people socially shaming people who failed to respect said norms 4. A group of people socially shaming those who opposed new specific legal rights 5. A group of people vocally opposing said legal and social changes 6. A group of people advocating legal restrictions to prevent or punish said different life choices 7. A group of people fighting said restrictions

JoBrad 1y ago
Given the overall rancor around topics like this, I feel it’s necessary to say I’m approaching this as a discussion, and am open to evidence that I’m wrong. In my opinion your item 2 is mostly a conflation of “people want to enjoy the same rights that others have enjoyed” and a recognition that “separate but equal” doesn’t actually work. A prime example is gay marriage, where we went from “don’t ask don’t tell” to a brief national discussion of “civil marriages” to simply recognizing that a marriage is a marriage, and anyone who is married should get access to the same rights as others who are married.
- scandox 1y ago
  I don't see a contradiction. I'm happy for people to seek changes to the law that makes their lives better. But it is still seeking change to the law. I don't know the American system well but didn't gay marriage require legal change? Or at least legal challenge leading to precedent?
  - nkrisc 1y ago
    It was more an equalization of the law so that it applies equally to all people. Absolutely nothing changed, legally, for the vast, vast majority of Americans.
nobody9999 1y ago
8. A tiny (less than 1% of the population) group of people who you are (somehow) imbuing with enormous power and clout in our society, even those these are people who have been loudly derided, shamed, beaten and even killed by a sizable group of folks in our society. Leave those folks alone, for heaven's sake. If you don't like them, stay away from them. If you don't want to give them simple human respect, it's legal to be an asshole. All this anger/hatred focused on a tiny group. What gives you (or me or anyone else, for that matter) the right to tell other people how they should live -- especially when it doesn't affect you in the slightest. People don't just "choose" to be transgender. And they certainly don't choose to do so because of the much higher risk of discrimination, abuse, violence and murder. Did I mention that trans folks are an incredibly tiny sliver of the population (<1%)?
- bobalob 1y ago
  > People don't just "choose" to be transgender. You may be surprised. Have you heard about "transmaxxing"? This involves men deliberately transitioning, with the end goal of passing themselves off as women, because they feel it's better than inceldom.
- scandox 1y ago
  I'm not attacking anyone. I am describing what I observed as a relative outsider of the social process that has occurred in the last ten years or so. Broadly I would like people to be able to live as they want and identify themselves as they like. I don't really understand your comment.
  - nobody9999 1y ago
    >I'm not attacking anyone. I am describing what I observed as a relative outsider of the social process that has occurred in the last ten years or so. You said: >I think the reality of what has gone on has several faces which are all worth thinking about: And then listed a bunch of innocuous stuff, as well as lies/tropes that bigots have used as an excuse to demonize minorities the world over, well, forever. Let's turn the clock back sixty years or so and change the focus from "transgender folks" to "African Americans." Perhaps then you'll see what got my dander up. 1. A group of people that want to be different without harming anyone and be left alone (check!) 2. A group of people demanding certain specific and new legal rights with respect to how they are different (yeah, those n*****s want to eat in our restaurants and swim in our public pools, have decent schools and even be allowed to buy houses near us! Why should they get special rights like that?) 3. A group of people advocating for new social and linguistic norms around said difference (Yeah, we've called them darkies n****r for hundreds of years! What's wrong with these uppity pieces of shit? Black? African American? What a bunch of crap!) 3. A group of people socially shaming people who failed to respect said norms (Yeah, what's wrong with these "language" police? I call a spade a spade -- or a n****r a n****r. What the hell is wrong with that? It's freedom of speech! Those fuckin' n*****s making demands? WTF?) 4. A group of people socially shaming those who opposed new specific legal rights (Yeah! What's wrong with all those folks telling me I have to allow these n*****s into my store/restaurant and not beat them half to death for trying and that I'm a bad person to boot if I don't! What's with these new and "special" rights for them? Why should I be blamed for not wanting to allow them to live like us white people -- they certainly don't deserve it!) 5. A group of people vocally opposing said legal and social changes (Breaking out of the historical context here: What legal changes are you talking about? Extending the idea that we should all be treated equally under the law? Which laws. Be specific here please.) 6. A group of people advocating legal restrictions to prevent or punish said different life choices ( Okay, back to 1965 -- Yeah! those n*****s choose to be poor and uneducated! Look at Dr. King! He can even read and write -- who allowed that to happen?)* 7. A group of people fighting said restrictions (And a good thing too. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were good things, although they're under more threat now than they were sixty years ago)* >Broadly I would like people to be able to live as they want and identify themselves as they like. I don't really understand your comment. Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't know you. I added (with the 8.) that the trans population is incredibly tiny -- yet folks spend an inordinate amount of time (including you making the assertion that trans folks are advocating for "new and special rights" that no one else gets -- what rights might those be? And be specific here) claiming they're trying to destroy our culture and corrupt our children with their Marxist beliefs. Ridiculous tropes on their face. And you uncritically portrayed those tropes as truth, when in fact they're lies designed to demonize other folks. As such, I have difficulty with your claim that you just want to live and let live. Prove me wrong. At least as far as you and I are concerned, nothing would make me happier.

JoBrad 1y ago

Given the overall rancor around topics like this, I feel it’s necessary to say I’m approaching this as a discussion, and am open to evidence that I’m wrong. In my opinion your item 2 is mostly a conflation of “people want to enjoy the same rights that others have enjoyed” and a recognition that “separate but equal” doesn’t actually work. A prime example is gay marriage, where we went from “don’t ask don’t tell” to a brief national discussion of “civil marriages” to simply recognizing that a marriage is a marriage, and anyone who is married should get access to the same rights as others who are married.

scandox 1y ago
I don't see a contradiction. I'm happy for people to seek changes to the law that makes their lives better. But it is still seeking change to the law. I don't know the American system well but didn't gay marriage require legal change? Or at least legal challenge leading to precedent?
- nkrisc 1y ago
  It was more an equalization of the law so that it applies equally to all people. Absolutely nothing changed, legally, for the vast, vast majority of Americans.

nobody9999 1y ago

8. A tiny (less than 1% of the population) group of people who you are (somehow) imbuing with enormous power and clout in our society, even those these are people who have been loudly derided, shamed, beaten and even killed by a sizable group of folks in our society. Leave those folks alone, for heaven's sake. If you don't like them, stay away from them. If you don't want to give them simple human respect, it's legal to be an asshole. All this anger/hatred focused on a tiny group. What gives you (or me or anyone else, for that matter) the right to tell other people how they should live -- especially when it doesn't affect you in the slightest. People don't just "choose" to be transgender. And they certainly don't choose to do so because of the much higher risk of discrimination, abuse, violence and murder. Did I mention that trans folks are an incredibly tiny sliver of the population (<1%)?

bobalob 1y ago
> People don't just "choose" to be transgender. You may be surprised. Have you heard about "transmaxxing"? This involves men deliberately transitioning, with the end goal of passing themselves off as women, because they feel it's better than inceldom.
scandox 1y ago
I'm not attacking anyone. I am describing what I observed as a relative outsider of the social process that has occurred in the last ten years or so. Broadly I would like people to be able to live as they want and identify themselves as they like. I don't really understand your comment.
- nobody9999 1y ago
  >I'm not attacking anyone. I am describing what I observed as a relative outsider of the social process that has occurred in the last ten years or so. You said: >I think the reality of what has gone on has several faces which are all worth thinking about: And then listed a bunch of innocuous stuff, as well as lies/tropes that bigots have used as an excuse to demonize minorities the world over, well, forever. Let's turn the clock back sixty years or so and change the focus from "transgender folks" to "African Americans." Perhaps then you'll see what got my dander up. 1. A group of people that want to be different without harming anyone and be left alone (check!) 2. A group of people demanding certain specific and new legal rights with respect to how they are different (yeah, those n*****s want to eat in our restaurants and swim in our public pools, have decent schools and even be allowed to buy houses near us! Why should they get special rights like that?) 3. A group of people advocating for new social and linguistic norms around said difference (Yeah, we've called them darkies n****r for hundreds of years! What's wrong with these uppity pieces of shit? Black? African American? What a bunch of crap!) 3. A group of people socially shaming people who failed to respect said norms (Yeah, what's wrong with these "language" police? I call a spade a spade -- or a n****r a n****r. What the hell is wrong with that? It's freedom of speech! Those fuckin' n*****s making demands? WTF?) 4. A group of people socially shaming those who opposed new specific legal rights (Yeah! What's wrong with all those folks telling me I have to allow these n*****s into my store/restaurant and not beat them half to death for trying and that I'm a bad person to boot if I don't! What's with these new and "special" rights for them? Why should I be blamed for not wanting to allow them to live like us white people -- they certainly don't deserve it!) 5. A group of people vocally opposing said legal and social changes (Breaking out of the historical context here: What legal changes are you talking about? Extending the idea that we should all be treated equally under the law? Which laws. Be specific here please.) 6. A group of people advocating legal restrictions to prevent or punish said different life choices ( Okay, back to 1965 -- Yeah! those n*****s choose to be poor and uneducated! Look at Dr. King! He can even read and write -- who allowed that to happen?)* 7. A group of people fighting said restrictions (And a good thing too. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were good things, although they're under more threat now than they were sixty years ago)* >Broadly I would like people to be able to live as they want and identify themselves as they like. I don't really understand your comment. Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't know you. I added (with the 8.) that the trans population is incredibly tiny -- yet folks spend an inordinate amount of time (including you making the assertion that trans folks are advocating for "new and special rights" that no one else gets -- what rights might those be? And be specific here) claiming they're trying to destroy our culture and corrupt our children with their Marxist beliefs. Ridiculous tropes on their face. And you uncritically portrayed those tropes as truth, when in fact they're lies designed to demonize other folks. As such, I have difficulty with your claim that you just want to live and let live. Prove me wrong. At least as far as you and I are concerned, nothing would make me happier.