5 ms·

I have a chinese friend who said something similar to this, she believes much of the culture in the modern west is influenced by some shady chinese government a

by HK-NC 1y ago

I have a chinese friend who said something similar to this, she believes much of the culture in the modern west is influenced by some shady chinese government attempt at controlling the speed at which said wheel turns, through Tiktok and stuff. While Id normally dismiss her as a nut, we do have rioting in the street arguing over a miniscule group of people wearing clothes dsigned for the opposite sex.

pessimizer 1y ago
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- unethical_ban 1y ago
  On biological males in women's sports I think more people can agree on this. But you're handwaving away the fact that conservative political parties are using trans existence as a wedge issue.
  - deleted 1y ago
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  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    They're using trans people's participation in sports (once uncontroversial) as a wedge to drive in the larger wedge of trans existence. They can do this because, intuitively, many people think there's an advantage to be had. If there were such advantages, then we'd have to consider the thorny topic of what constitutes an "unfair" advantage, and whether the social implications of excluding a marginalised population outweigh the (perhaps disproportionate) impact of yada yada. But we don't have to consider any of this, because scientific research suggests trans women do not have such advantages over cis women: medical transition does not lead to a body configuration optimised for sports. Quoth, for instance, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chest.2025.04.004 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chest.2025.04.004: > This study highlights substantial ventilatory inefficiencies in transgender women, likely associated with gender-affirming hormone therapy This whole moral panic is an artificially-constructed wedge issue: they found something persuasive, and (by presenting trans people as something dangerous and new) side-stepped the need for evidence of harm, and positioned their reactionary bans as conservative. I think, when arguing about this topic, more attention needs to be paid to the fact that feminising hormone therapy (as a treatment for trans women) is older than insulin (as a treatment for diabetics). Any harmful consequences of trans existence (resp. participation in sports, etc) already happened, and nobody alive noticed.
    - drankl 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - wizzwizz4 1y ago
        And FIDE "disagrees with me on the question of male physiological advantage" in… chess. https://doc.fide.com/docs/DOC/2FC2023/CM2_2023_45.pdf https://doc.fide.com/docs/DOC/2FC2023/CM2_2023_45.pdf There's clearly more to this "ban trans people from sports" phenomenon than dispassionate assessment of the evidence. dang has asked you to stop commenting like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45108551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45108551. If you're explaining your position, I'd consider that fine (though dang might not), but throwing out claims that are easy to state and hard to rebut (without stooping to the "fight rhetoric with rhetoric" level) does not encourage thoughtful discussion.
        drankl 1y ago
        The reason for a separate women's category in FIDE's chess competitions is different to athletic sports - it was introduced to encourage female participation in what was an overwhelmingly male-dominated field. As an example, here's what women in chess have to deal with: https://www.fide.com/fides-statement-on-sexist-remarks/ https://www.fide.com/fides-statement-on-sexist-remarks/ That statement makes the point that FIDE are well aware this is a problem, and is one they're trying to solve: "FIDE not only strives to increase women’s representation in professional sports and official positions but also to change the perception of chess as purely a men’s world. Our community has to be a place where women feel safe and respected. Therefore, any action that carries disrespect, sexism or physical, verbal or emotional assault is unacceptable." Now, some people might argue that if a male competitor claims to have a woman identity, whatever that is, then that player should be permitted to compete alongside women. Given their aim of increasing female participation in chess, FIDE have been somewhat more skeptical of this argument, as you can see in the policy you linked. > but throwing out claims that are easy to state and hard to rebut (without stooping to the "fight rhetoric with rhetoric" level) does not encourage thoughtful discussion. I made a comment about the perspective of World Athletics on this, and linked to their statement as evidence. Why would you feel the need to rebut this? Instead of considering it thoughtfully.
  - drankl 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
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wizzwizz4 1y ago
We also had rioting in the street over this in Berlin, 1933-05-06 (four days before the famous bonfire). Occam's Razor says that shady Chinese government intervention is not needed.

by HK-NC 1y ago

pessimizer 1y ago

[flagged]

unethical_ban 1y ago
On biological males in women's sports I think more people can agree on this. But you're handwaving away the fact that conservative political parties are using trans existence as a wedge issue.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  They're using trans people's participation in sports (once uncontroversial) as a wedge to drive in the larger wedge of trans existence. They can do this because, intuitively, many people think there's an advantage to be had. If there were such advantages, then we'd have to consider the thorny topic of what constitutes an "unfair" advantage, and whether the social implications of excluding a marginalised population outweigh the (perhaps disproportionate) impact of yada yada. But we don't have to consider any of this, because scientific research suggests trans women do not have such advantages over cis women: medical transition does not lead to a body configuration optimised for sports. Quoth, for instance, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chest.2025.04.004 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chest.2025.04.004: > This study highlights substantial ventilatory inefficiencies in transgender women, likely associated with gender-affirming hormone therapy This whole moral panic is an artificially-constructed wedge issue: they found something persuasive, and (by presenting trans people as something dangerous and new) side-stepped the need for evidence of harm, and positioned their reactionary bans as conservative. I think, when arguing about this topic, more attention needs to be paid to the fact that feminising hormone therapy (as a treatment for trans women) is older than insulin (as a treatment for diabetics). Any harmful consequences of trans existence (resp. participation in sports, etc) already happened, and nobody alive noticed.
  - drankl 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - wizzwizz4 1y ago
      And FIDE "disagrees with me on the question of male physiological advantage" in… chess. https://doc.fide.com/docs/DOC/2FC2023/CM2_2023_45.pdf https://doc.fide.com/docs/DOC/2FC2023/CM2_2023_45.pdf There's clearly more to this "ban trans people from sports" phenomenon than dispassionate assessment of the evidence. dang has asked you to stop commenting like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45108551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45108551. If you're explaining your position, I'd consider that fine (though dang might not), but throwing out claims that are easy to state and hard to rebut (without stooping to the "fight rhetoric with rhetoric" level) does not encourage thoughtful discussion.
      - drankl 1y ago
        The reason for a separate women's category in FIDE's chess competitions is different to athletic sports - it was introduced to encourage female participation in what was an overwhelmingly male-dominated field. As an example, here's what women in chess have to deal with: https://www.fide.com/fides-statement-on-sexist-remarks/ https://www.fide.com/fides-statement-on-sexist-remarks/ That statement makes the point that FIDE are well aware this is a problem, and is one they're trying to solve: "FIDE not only strives to increase women’s representation in professional sports and official positions but also to change the perception of chess as purely a men’s world. Our community has to be a place where women feel safe and respected. Therefore, any action that carries disrespect, sexism or physical, verbal or emotional assault is unacceptable." Now, some people might argue that if a male competitor claims to have a woman identity, whatever that is, then that player should be permitted to compete alongside women. Given their aim of increasing female participation in chess, FIDE have been somewhat more skeptical of this argument, as you can see in the policy you linked. > but throwing out claims that are easy to state and hard to rebut (without stooping to the "fight rhetoric with rhetoric" level) does not encourage thoughtful discussion. I made a comment about the perspective of World Athletics on this, and linked to their statement as evidence. Why would you feel the need to rebut this? Instead of considering it thoughtfully.
- drankl 1y ago
  [flagged]
deleted 1y ago
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wizzwizz4 1y ago

We also had rioting in the street over this in Berlin, 1933-05-06 (four days before the famous bonfire). Occam's Razor says that shady Chinese government intervention is not needed.