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> Now with kids, I understand why "Americans love their cars" - it switched form a derogatory statement to one of understanding. There's a reason that "ban the

by em500 1y ago

> Now with kids, I understand why "Americans love their cars" - it switched form a derogatory statement to one of understanding. There's a reason that "ban the cars" posters never mention a partner or children in their bios. This seems very different from the large anti-car movement in the Netherlands in the 1970s (which eventually led to massive investments in bike infrastructure and car restrictions in the cities). There was significant parent involvement, touting the memorable slogan "Stop de Kindermoord" ("Stop the Child Murder"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_transport_in_the_Netherlands#Road_safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_transport_in_the_Netherla...

qwertox 1y ago
There's a youtube channel named @NotJustBikes which mostly talks about how bike-friendly the Netherlands are and compares it to the USA. It's worth watching a couple of those videos.
- stephen_g 1y ago
  And, unlike the grandparent-comment’s assertions, that channel references his family and kids in most videos (in that he and his partner moved to Amsterdam so his children could have the freedom to navigate safely without having to be driven around).
  - rglullis 1y ago
    My mother lives in suburban Massachusetts. She always said that she never imagined how it was possible for me to live with two small kids without a car in Berlin. She came to visit for one month. After the first week she was already comfortably going around with the Ubahn to pick up the kids at school. I have 4 supermarkets less than 150m away from me, so we would walk to do groceries every other day. I spend ~80€/month with taxi rides (for the occasional trip to meet someone in a less convenient place), which is less than what she pays in car insurance alone, not even counting the cost of gas. At the end of the trip, she got it. Having a car is not a necessity. It should be seen (and taxed) as a luxury.
    - skybrian 1y ago
      That’s great for where you live, but why did you end with such intolerance for people who live in the suburbs? They don’t have four supermarkets in less than 150 meters. There are places where cars actually are a necessity. Seems like empathy should work both ways?
      - ajuc 1y ago
        Because people in suburbs are subsidized at the cost of and prioritized over everybody else.
        skybrian 1y ago
        How do you know? Seems like cities have expensive infrastructure too?
        rglullis 1y ago
        No, suburbs cost more per capita than people living in the inner city, generate less tax revenue and end up becoming a net negative to municipalities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI The whole series of videos from Strong Towns are good, you should take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg
        skybrian 1y ago
        I’m not going to watch YouTube videos (I’m a text guy) but the Strong Towns blog is pretty good. I don’t think they’re the last word on this, because they’re often making general observations, and financial problems are often local. For example, I know Oakland, CA has severe financial issues (looks like the school district might go bankrupt) but I wouldn’t generalize from that to all cities.
        rglullis 1y ago
  - lelanthran 1y ago
    > that channel references his family and kids in most videos (in that he and his partner moved to Amsterdam so his children could have the freedom to navigate safely without having to be driven around). Then they are unlikely to be unbiased - someone who uproots and moves their family due to an issue they care about is almost never going to express any regret, no matter how bad things get.
    - fluoridation 1y ago
      Of course it's not unbiased. It's an opinion channel about a highly politicized topic.
      - lelanthran 1y ago
        >>> It's worth watching a couple of those videos. >> Then they are unlikely to be unbiased > Of course it's not unbiased. Then why, in the words of GP, "It's worth watching"?
        fluoridation 1y ago
        That's a question for that person. I couldn't tell you why they think so. I'd guess the implication is that someone who's interested in the urban infrastructure of the Netherlands and how it compares to North America's might find it interesting. Having said that, what a strange question. Do you only find it worthwhile to engage with unbiased content?
        lelanthran 1y ago
        > Do you only find it worthwhile to engage with unbiased content? Of course not, but there's a huge difference between: 1. Pointing someone at (for example) a church's website when you are trying to support an argument against pro-choice, and 2. Pointing someone at the relevant wikipedia page Both are biased in some way, but one of them is so biased that it is effectively useless unless you are already on board and in agreement with the argument. > Having said that, what a strange question. It's only a strange question to the people who are already ideologically aligned in that direction.
stinkbeetle 1y ago
[flagged]
- woooooo 1y ago
  "Think of the children" is a political constant. If you only see it on one side then that says more about you.
  - stinkbeetle 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - oarsinsync 1y ago
      > how many kinds of "liberal" reform “Liberal” is used to refer to one part of the political spectrum in mainstream American discourse.
      - stinkbeetle 1y ago
        Astute observation, so it shouldn't be any trouble for you to find the part where I said I did not see this on any other side.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- jlokier 1y ago
  To my mind, "think of the children" is something I've only ever seen as a motivating force of anti-liberal politics. With liberals saying the "think of the children" argument is a specious, misdirecting, crude appeal to emotion that should be looked past.
  - stinkbeetle 1y ago
lr4444lr 1y ago
I have no knowledge of what this Dutch effort was beyond the info in your link, but nothing suggests that the public outcry was go actually ban vehicles or disincentivize ownership and use with tactics such as with higher fees, reduced parking availability, which is what U.S. urban road safety advocates I see pushing for.
- ffsm8 1y ago
  I mean Amsterdam is kinda renown exactly for reducing parking availability, slow speed limits and generally human-first city planning nowadays. Wasn't always like that either. In the 90s it was cars-first just like the OP likes nowadays. It's definitely true that having only bicycle infrastructure doesn't really work for families though. It's a different story if you've got a cargo bike and public transport... But it's understandable that that's not even entering his mind considering the culture of the USA.
  - pastage 1y ago
    Agreed, I only know of a handfull families that manage with no nearby public transport using bicycle only. It is possible, I managed doing 50km for couple of months with a cargo bike and small kids, you adapt. I do not recommend that to anyone unless you really want to, it is just too cheap to own a couple of cars.
    - rglullis 1y ago
      > it is just too cheap to own a couple of cars. It's only cheap because they are heavily subsidized. And then we go back to a discussion about policy. If you remove all the subsidies or make car-owners pay for the externalities, things would quickly turn in favor for higher density, public transit, and AFAIK no game has put this into their game economics.
      - lambertsimnel 1y ago
        The forthcoming Car Park Capital[0] looks like an interesting reflection of your sentiment (but it's about planning cities to make them more car centric). [0] https://www.microprose.com/games/car-park-capital/ https://www.microprose.com/games/car-park-capital/
xnx 1y ago
The US doesn't even try to restrict machine gun ownership by civilians even after mass murder of six year olds so I'm doubtful a campaign about child safety will motivate them.

by em500 1y ago

qwertox 1y ago

There's a youtube channel named @NotJustBikes which mostly talks about how bike-friendly the Netherlands are and compares it to the USA. It's worth watching a couple of those videos.

stephen_g 1y ago
And, unlike the grandparent-comment’s assertions, that channel references his family and kids in most videos (in that he and his partner moved to Amsterdam so his children could have the freedom to navigate safely without having to be driven around).
- rglullis 1y ago
  My mother lives in suburban Massachusetts. She always said that she never imagined how it was possible for me to live with two small kids without a car in Berlin. She came to visit for one month. After the first week she was already comfortably going around with the Ubahn to pick up the kids at school. I have 4 supermarkets less than 150m away from me, so we would walk to do groceries every other day. I spend ~80€/month with taxi rides (for the occasional trip to meet someone in a less convenient place), which is less than what she pays in car insurance alone, not even counting the cost of gas. At the end of the trip, she got it. Having a car is not a necessity. It should be seen (and taxed) as a luxury.
  - skybrian 1y ago
    That’s great for where you live, but why did you end with such intolerance for people who live in the suburbs? They don’t have four supermarkets in less than 150 meters. There are places where cars actually are a necessity. Seems like empathy should work both ways?
    - ajuc 1y ago
      Because people in suburbs are subsidized at the cost of and prioritized over everybody else.
      - skybrian 1y ago
        How do you know? Seems like cities have expensive infrastructure too?
        rglullis 1y ago
        No, suburbs cost more per capita than people living in the inner city, generate less tax revenue and end up becoming a net negative to municipalities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI The whole series of videos from Strong Towns are good, you should take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg
        skybrian 1y ago
        I’m not going to watch YouTube videos (I’m a text guy) but the Strong Towns blog is pretty good. I don’t think they’re the last word on this, because they’re often making general observations, and financial problems are often local. For example, I know Oakland, CA has severe financial issues (looks like the school district might go bankrupt) but I wouldn’t generalize from that to all cities.
        rglullis 1y ago
- lelanthran 1y ago
  > that channel references his family and kids in most videos (in that he and his partner moved to Amsterdam so his children could have the freedom to navigate safely without having to be driven around). Then they are unlikely to be unbiased - someone who uproots and moves their family due to an issue they care about is almost never going to express any regret, no matter how bad things get.
  - fluoridation 1y ago
    Of course it's not unbiased. It's an opinion channel about a highly politicized topic.
    - lelanthran 1y ago
      >>> It's worth watching a couple of those videos. >> Then they are unlikely to be unbiased > Of course it's not unbiased. Then why, in the words of GP, "It's worth watching"?
      - fluoridation 1y ago
        That's a question for that person. I couldn't tell you why they think so. I'd guess the implication is that someone who's interested in the urban infrastructure of the Netherlands and how it compares to North America's might find it interesting. Having said that, what a strange question. Do you only find it worthwhile to engage with unbiased content?
        lelanthran 1y ago
        > Do you only find it worthwhile to engage with unbiased content? Of course not, but there's a huge difference between: 1. Pointing someone at (for example) a church's website when you are trying to support an argument against pro-choice, and 2. Pointing someone at the relevant wikipedia page Both are biased in some way, but one of them is so biased that it is effectively useless unless you are already on board and in agreement with the argument. > Having said that, what a strange question. It's only a strange question to the people who are already ideologically aligned in that direction.

stinkbeetle 1y ago

[flagged]

woooooo 1y ago
"Think of the children" is a political constant. If you only see it on one side then that says more about you.
- stinkbeetle 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - oarsinsync 1y ago
    > how many kinds of "liberal" reform “Liberal” is used to refer to one part of the political spectrum in mainstream American discourse.
    - stinkbeetle 1y ago
      Astute observation, so it shouldn't be any trouble for you to find the part where I said I did not see this on any other side.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jlokier 1y ago
To my mind, "think of the children" is something I've only ever seen as a motivating force of anti-liberal politics. With liberals saying the "think of the children" argument is a specious, misdirecting, crude appeal to emotion that should be looked past.
- stinkbeetle 1y ago

lr4444lr 1y ago

I have no knowledge of what this Dutch effort was beyond the info in your link, but nothing suggests that the public outcry was go actually ban vehicles or disincentivize ownership and use with tactics such as with higher fees, reduced parking availability, which is what U.S. urban road safety advocates I see pushing for.

ffsm8 1y ago
I mean Amsterdam is kinda renown exactly for reducing parking availability, slow speed limits and generally human-first city planning nowadays. Wasn't always like that either. In the 90s it was cars-first just like the OP likes nowadays. It's definitely true that having only bicycle infrastructure doesn't really work for families though. It's a different story if you've got a cargo bike and public transport... But it's understandable that that's not even entering his mind considering the culture of the USA.
- pastage 1y ago
  Agreed, I only know of a handfull families that manage with no nearby public transport using bicycle only. It is possible, I managed doing 50km for couple of months with a cargo bike and small kids, you adapt. I do not recommend that to anyone unless you really want to, it is just too cheap to own a couple of cars.
  - rglullis 1y ago
    > it is just too cheap to own a couple of cars. It's only cheap because they are heavily subsidized. And then we go back to a discussion about policy. If you remove all the subsidies or make car-owners pay for the externalities, things would quickly turn in favor for higher density, public transit, and AFAIK no game has put this into their game economics.
    - lambertsimnel 1y ago
      The forthcoming Car Park Capital[0] looks like an interesting reflection of your sentiment (but it's about planning cities to make them more car centric). [0] https://www.microprose.com/games/car-park-capital/ https://www.microprose.com/games/car-park-capital/

xnx 1y ago

The US doesn't even try to restrict machine gun ownership by civilians even after mass murder of six year olds so I'm doubtful a campaign about child safety will motivate them.