4 ms·

That would be surprising if developers were fungible. You can have a surplus of web developers (whom you lay off) while at the same time have a shortage of AI t

That would be surprising if developers were fungible. You can have a surplus of web developers (whom you lay off) while at the same time have a shortage of AI talent. Those web developers can't be hired in to the openings for AI talent.

geye1234 1y ago
That's not what's happening though.
- Den_VR 1y ago
  Account managers and sales engineers are the ones I’ve seen laid off. They seem to have kept the licensing specialists they need on calls because nobody understands the convoluted mess they’ve created. So, losing the people we were working with, on top of all the issues with the products themselves, it made going to OpenShift that much easier.
- mips_avatar 1y ago
  I mean Microsoft laid off 5% of the developers and 30% of the product managers in my org, so they think that they don't need Windows development.
BurningFrog 1y ago
Most MS employees aren't even engineers!
OptionOfT 1y ago
I come from a country where you'd basically have to prove that the people you laid off could not be retrained to do the new roles. If anything, what is the difference between an employee and a contractor if you can just terminate them once you're done with them?
- junon 1y ago
  FTEs in the US get benefits and part of their taxes paid for them. Contractors are not (can be, typically are not). Getting hired (getting an apartment, ...) is easier in the US as there are significantly less challenges at terminating those contracts by the 'provider' than in e.g. Germany, where it's really hard to fire or evict someone.
ndriscoll 1y ago
I would be surprised if programmers couldn't generally quickly pick up a new domain. I presume we're not talking 5,000 people doing heavy research (wouldn't that be O-1 anyway?), and I don't see how product development work becomes more complicated when you call it AI. e.g. you don't need a PhD to hook calls to a model into VS Code or to build the API and infrastructure around calling the model or data pipelines or all the other 90% of actually making it useful. I wouldn't call developers fungible, but certainly good developers are adaptable.
- mips_avatar 1y ago
  I don't think Microsoft is lacking a supply of people capable of doing things, they're lacking a culture that lets you do things. The most annoying thing about Microsoft culture is that you have to pretend that Satya Nadella fixed it.
mips_avatar 1y ago
None of us knew how to finetune a model 18 months ago, we learned. This idea that what you've done in the past is all you can do is such a dumb big tech idea that needs to die.
- em-bee 1y ago
  but also the idea that anything you learned 5 years ago or earlier is no longer relevant.
  - iwontberude 1y ago
    Which is why we don’t hire for knowledge, we hire for thought patterns. There is room for much bias when considering past accomplishment.
    - em-bee 1y ago
      how do you interview/test for that?
cmxch 1y ago
Retrain or pay them until they can replace their lost salary, contingents and contractors broadly included.

geye1234 1y ago

That's not what's happening though.

Den_VR 1y ago
Account managers and sales engineers are the ones I’ve seen laid off. They seem to have kept the licensing specialists they need on calls because nobody understands the convoluted mess they’ve created. So, losing the people we were working with, on top of all the issues with the products themselves, it made going to OpenShift that much easier.
mips_avatar 1y ago
I mean Microsoft laid off 5% of the developers and 30% of the product managers in my org, so they think that they don't need Windows development.

BurningFrog 1y ago

Most MS employees aren't even engineers!

OptionOfT 1y ago

I come from a country where you'd basically have to prove that the people you laid off could not be retrained to do the new roles. If anything, what is the difference between an employee and a contractor if you can just terminate them once you're done with them?

junon 1y ago
FTEs in the US get benefits and part of their taxes paid for them. Contractors are not (can be, typically are not). Getting hired (getting an apartment, ...) is easier in the US as there are significantly less challenges at terminating those contracts by the 'provider' than in e.g. Germany, where it's really hard to fire or evict someone.

ndriscoll 1y ago

I would be surprised if programmers couldn't generally quickly pick up a new domain. I presume we're not talking 5,000 people doing heavy research (wouldn't that be O-1 anyway?), and I don't see how product development work becomes more complicated when you call it AI. e.g. you don't need a PhD to hook calls to a model into VS Code or to build the API and infrastructure around calling the model or data pipelines or all the other 90% of actually making it useful. I wouldn't call developers fungible, but certainly good developers are adaptable.

mips_avatar 1y ago
I don't think Microsoft is lacking a supply of people capable of doing things, they're lacking a culture that lets you do things. The most annoying thing about Microsoft culture is that you have to pretend that Satya Nadella fixed it.

mips_avatar 1y ago

None of us knew how to finetune a model 18 months ago, we learned. This idea that what you've done in the past is all you can do is such a dumb big tech idea that needs to die.

em-bee 1y ago
but also the idea that anything you learned 5 years ago or earlier is no longer relevant.
- iwontberude 1y ago
  Which is why we don’t hire for knowledge, we hire for thought patterns. There is room for much bias when considering past accomplishment.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    how do you interview/test for that?

cmxch 1y ago

Retrain or pay them until they can replace their lost salary, contingents and contractors broadly included.