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What? This is such weird nonsense. You wanna say that about the Irish and the Polish of a century ago, too? lol

rayiner 1y ago
Chicago still suffers from the political machines that were created during mass immigration of Germans and Irish in the 19th century! Immigrants engage in block voting, and political machines arise to whip that vote. That results in corruption, because people’s vote is based on ethnic loyalty and group interests instead of the merits: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/11/24/illinois-democrats-irish-political-hierarchy-521144 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/11/24/illinois-d...
- tptacek 1y ago
  No, it doesn't.
  - rayiner 1y ago
    Yes it does. Chicago is the poster child for why immigration precludes good governance: https://scholars.luc.edu/ws/portalfiles/portal/40036336/Ethnic%20Political%20Power%20in%20a%20Machine%20City_%20%20Chicagos%20Poles%20at%20Rai.pdf https://scholars.luc.edu/ws/portalfiles/portal/40036336/Ethn... (pp. 527-529).
    - tptacek 1y ago
      This makes what appears to be the opposite of your claim.
      - rayiner 1y ago
        In what way? The cited portion, which discusses theories in the field, says: “The rainbow theorists argue that the machine was a functional body (Merton 1968) that pursued political incorporation of many ethnic groups in the political party. In return for loyalty to the political party, machines delivered a variety of social services to ethnic immigrants, in addition to jobs, friendship, and opportunities for social and economic advancement. The rainbow coalition of mostly white-ethnic groups was sustained through a virtually endless supply of ‘municipal gold’ (Erie 1988) that the machines controlled. This exchange system seemingly guaranteed ethnic loyalty to the machine.” The remainder of the article shows how Irish domination left the Polish with the short end of the stick: “Through this study we try to show that Polish Americans in Chicago were on the short end of the exchange arrangements in the machine, receiving few rewards, especially as their independence from the Democratic party expanded during the Daley era.” The Poles were punished This is basically Pakistan, except instead of clans it’s immigrant groups voting for their own co-ethnics and jockeying for advantage. It’s a far cry from the political debates of the founding era, which were based on principles and political theory, not ethnic tribalism.
        habinero 1y ago
        So, what, are you advocating throwing everyone out of the US who isn't native American? Literally everyone else immigrated here.
        rayiner 1y ago
        That’s not a helpful lens because it overlooks the patterns of settlement. Nearly all the founding fathers were British. During the 18th century, German and Scandinavian immigrants formed their own communities across the midwest. Ethnic politics had little opportunity to arise in these communities, which were individually mono cultural. That result of that is quite different from a mass influx of a foreign population with a distinct group identity into an existing city or town. In terms of what we could do now, we should stop illegal immigration and asylum entirely. We should also end family reunification. And skilled immigration should be spread out around the country (there are top universities everywhere). All that would prevent the development of ethnic enclaves, and over time lead to the weakening of disparate ethnic identities. That’s what happened during the immigration restriction from 1924-1965, when the foreign born population share dropped by 2/3, and the salience of ethnic identity among European Americans was greatly reduced.
        habinero 1y ago
        It's only "not helpful" because you don't have a good argument against it. :) Also, the founders were not British. Most of them were second and third generation immigrants. In addition, I don't think you realize how funny this statement is: > Ethnic politics had little opportunity to arise in these communities, which were individually mono cultural I wonder if you can spot the massive gaping hole in this logic. I doubt it.
        newfriend 1y ago
        Being born in a British colony in the early 1700s to British subject parents did in fact mean you were also a British subject. Several were also born in Great Britain proper. They were also nearly all ethnically English or Scottish. Indeed, most of the founding fathers were British.
- Nasrudith 1y ago
  The whole argument sounds familiar. "Those entitled minorities have the nerve to make not being discriminated against a high priority when voting." It is all classic scapegoating and assigning sinister forces who conspire to make people do things that they would all do on their own anyway and refusing to accept any responsibility on your part. The obvious solution of "stop being a racist douchebag so minorities can actually feel secure enough to be able to act on other priorities" being of course completely off the table as the speaker views such behavior as a birthright and sacrament. It does happen. Now voters of Irish descent take 'is an Irish Catholic' as a nice to have at most instead of an essential. But the same counterproductive behavior is doubled down upon as their sacred sacrament of racist douchebaggery shall not be denied. Look at how a very religiously conservative bloc, Muslims ended up shifting to the left by necessity from the racism they encountered post war on terror.

Chicago still suffers from the political machines that were created during mass immigration of Germans and Irish in the 19th century! Immigrants engage in block voting, and political machines arise to whip that vote. That results in corruption, because people’s vote is based on ethnic loyalty and group interests instead of the merits: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/11/24/illinois-democrats-irish-political-hierarchy-521144 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/11/24/illinois-d...

tptacek 1y ago
No, it doesn't.
- rayiner 1y ago
  Yes it does. Chicago is the poster child for why immigration precludes good governance: https://scholars.luc.edu/ws/portalfiles/portal/40036336/Ethnic%20Political%20Power%20in%20a%20Machine%20City_%20%20Chicagos%20Poles%20at%20Rai.pdf https://scholars.luc.edu/ws/portalfiles/portal/40036336/Ethn... (pp. 527-529).
  - tptacek 1y ago
    This makes what appears to be the opposite of your claim.
    - rayiner 1y ago
      In what way? The cited portion, which discusses theories in the field, says: “The rainbow theorists argue that the machine was a functional body (Merton 1968) that pursued political incorporation of many ethnic groups in the political party. In return for loyalty to the political party, machines delivered a variety of social services to ethnic immigrants, in addition to jobs, friendship, and opportunities for social and economic advancement. The rainbow coalition of mostly white-ethnic groups was sustained through a virtually endless supply of ‘municipal gold’ (Erie 1988) that the machines controlled. This exchange system seemingly guaranteed ethnic loyalty to the machine.” The remainder of the article shows how Irish domination left the Polish with the short end of the stick: “Through this study we try to show that Polish Americans in Chicago were on the short end of the exchange arrangements in the machine, receiving few rewards, especially as their independence from the Democratic party expanded during the Daley era.” The Poles were punished This is basically Pakistan, except instead of clans it’s immigrant groups voting for their own co-ethnics and jockeying for advantage. It’s a far cry from the political debates of the founding era, which were based on principles and political theory, not ethnic tribalism.
      - habinero 1y ago
        So, what, are you advocating throwing everyone out of the US who isn't native American? Literally everyone else immigrated here.
        rayiner 1y ago
        That’s not a helpful lens because it overlooks the patterns of settlement. Nearly all the founding fathers were British. During the 18th century, German and Scandinavian immigrants formed their own communities across the midwest. Ethnic politics had little opportunity to arise in these communities, which were individually mono cultural. That result of that is quite different from a mass influx of a foreign population with a distinct group identity into an existing city or town. In terms of what we could do now, we should stop illegal immigration and asylum entirely. We should also end family reunification. And skilled immigration should be spread out around the country (there are top universities everywhere). All that would prevent the development of ethnic enclaves, and over time lead to the weakening of disparate ethnic identities. That’s what happened during the immigration restriction from 1924-1965, when the foreign born population share dropped by 2/3, and the salience of ethnic identity among European Americans was greatly reduced.
        habinero 1y ago
        It's only "not helpful" because you don't have a good argument against it. :) Also, the founders were not British. Most of them were second and third generation immigrants. In addition, I don't think you realize how funny this statement is: > Ethnic politics had little opportunity to arise in these communities, which were individually mono cultural I wonder if you can spot the massive gaping hole in this logic. I doubt it.
        newfriend 1y ago
        Being born in a British colony in the early 1700s to British subject parents did in fact mean you were also a British subject. Several were also born in Great Britain proper. They were also nearly all ethnically English or Scottish. Indeed, most of the founding fathers were British.
Nasrudith 1y ago
The whole argument sounds familiar. "Those entitled minorities have the nerve to make not being discriminated against a high priority when voting." It is all classic scapegoating and assigning sinister forces who conspire to make people do things that they would all do on their own anyway and refusing to accept any responsibility on your part. The obvious solution of "stop being a racist douchebag so minorities can actually feel secure enough to be able to act on other priorities" being of course completely off the table as the speaker views such behavior as a birthright and sacrament. It does happen. Now voters of Irish descent take 'is an Irish Catholic' as a nice to have at most instead of an essential. But the same counterproductive behavior is doubled down upon as their sacred sacrament of racist douchebaggery shall not be denied. Look at how a very religiously conservative bloc, Muslims ended up shifting to the left by necessity from the racism they encountered post war on terror.