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In contrast, Turkey shot down a Russian aircraft that had violated its airspace for seventeen seconds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_
by jerlam 1y ago
In contrast, Turkey shot down a Russian aircraft that had violated its airspace for seventeen seconds:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shoo...
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoI genuinely don’t get why air defences aren’t being engaged. At Estonian and Polish really still open?
- wmf 1y agoIf Russia is the first to fire a shot it will be easier to make the case that they're the bad guys.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> If Russia is the first to fire a shot it will be easier to make the case that they're the bad guys Sorry, if the country invading another European country while invading others' airspaces isn't clearly the bad guy to someone, the order of fire isn't going to matter. Putin responds to force. Allowing these intrusions without consequence invites further provocation. Putin will bitch and moan about a downed fighter. But he'll also stop lobbing them across.
- drysine 1y ago"Putin will bitch and moan about a downed fighter. But he'll also stop lobbing them across." Such was the thinking that accompanied NATO expansion - Russians would bitch and moan but wouldn't do anything. Look how that worked out.
- w0de0 1y agoIt’s worked out in as much as no NATO country in the east has been yet as tacked - despite all of them being smaller prey than Ukraine. (I find it difficult to believe that Russia wouldn’t have embarked on an expansionist project if NATO had just kept out of its traditional sphere of influence after the fall of the USSR. Russia would still have rebounded from the vicious 90s with a desire for near-abroad dominance - and would have found many more avenues of advance.)
- drysine 1y ago"I find it difficult to believe that Russia wouldn’t have embarked on an expansionist project" Why?
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoBecause he’s almost perfectly modelled by every other expansionist dictator. A war machine benefits him domestically, and revanchism decorates his conservative credentials. Also: Turkey. Chechnya. Putin responds to force by backing off. He responds to perceived weakness by doubling down. Same as every other expansionist dictator in history.
- drysine 1y ago"he’s almost perfectly modelled by every other expansionist dictator" Only if you are willing to ignore the facts that don't fit into your model. Namely specific triggers for Putin's actions like 2008's NATO declaration of imminent NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine and American involvement in 2014 coup. [0] Or many years of Putin's warnings accompanying NATO expansion. "A war machine benefits him domestically" No, it doesn't. Otherwise there would'be been no need for all the restrictions on the access to information, freedom of speech and assembly in Russia. "Also: Turkey. Chechnya. Putin responds to force by backing off. " Chechnya? You are confusing Putin with "democratic" Eltsin, West's drunken darling. Putin started and won the second Chechen war. As for Turkey, there was no fundamental reason to start a war with Turkey. It wasn't expanding its military infrastructure towards Russian borders and supporting anti-Russian coups in Russia's neighbours. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957