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> - What Kimmel said was wrong (assuming you believe Utah state investigators) and deeply irresponsible and inflammatory. I agree that we should be disavowing

> - What Kimmel said was wrong (assuming you believe Utah state investigators) and deeply irresponsible and inflammatory. I agree that we should be disavowing violence. The problem is that for 10 years democratic lawmakers and media figures are disavowing violence on both sides, while republican lawmakers and media figures are doing the opposite: stoking the flames, promoting the idea of civil war, telling everyone that the country is stolen from them, that immigrants are out to get them, that democrats are out to get them, etc. According to this rhetoric, democrats are to blame for all of this. When something bad happens and it's not democrats who caused it, they come up with a conspiratorial explanation for how it's still democrats. So when one side keeps constantly disavowing, and the other side keeps constantly attacking, at some point disavowing becomes literally the wrong thing to do. You can't lay down your weapon while the other person just keeps hitting, and expect the hitting to stop. What we are being shown repeatedly by republicans is that violent, divisive rhetoric actually leads to electoral victories, and grants free license to become "president for one side only" and do whatever that side wants. If democrats continue to disavow and apologize, they will end up simply extinct. This is why some democrats stopped doing that.

zahlman 1y ago
> for 10 years democratic lawmakers and media figures are disavowing violence on both sides, while republican lawmakers and media figures are doing the opposite It was not a Republican media figure who made that video of herself holding "a mask styled to look like the severed, bloody head" of the POTUS. Among the biggest-name political Twitch streamers, it's not the right-wingers who are being shown to have all sorts of clips calling for political violence, making threats that include brandishing firearms on stream, doxxing people etc. — all of which are blatant TOS violations, but which never seem to get them banned. From the evidence available to me, the CEO of Twitch seems to be quite friendly with the most egregious of those streamers. > So when one side keeps constantly disavowing, and the other side keeps constantly attacking, at some point disavowing becomes literally the wrong thing to do. You can't lay down your weapon while the other person just keeps hitting, and expect the hitting to stop. I can assure you the other side feels the same way. There are even supercuts out there of Trump repeatedly disavowing violence that he was still accused of not disavowing.
- hakunin 1y ago
  > Twitch There are only 2 sides on twitch right now, both illiberal. One side has the political philosophy that amounts to "if Trump does it, we support it". The other side is a fringe far left (e.g. tankies). Except the former "philosophy" is supported by 90% of republicans, and the latter is ostracized by democrats. Even AOC (the once symbol of far leftism) shifted towards more mainstream liberal democratic values. These twitch lefties don't vote. They are politically nowhere in this country. And you are comparing president of the country to twitch streamers. President is not supposed to be an edgy instigator and influencer, he's supposed to be president for everyone. And yet, every disavowal that Trump made, he ended up blaming democrats in the same breath. He constantly berates everyone on the left, sues, destroys politically, or otherwise silences anyone who criticizes him. I'm supposed to feel like he's my president even if I didn't vote for him, but I cannot, because he makes that distinction very clear.
  - zahlman 1y ago
    > One side has the political philosophy that amounts to "if Trump does it, we support it". I disagree that this is an accurate characterization of the side that isn't the "fringe far left". > and the latter is ostracized by democrats. It looks to me like, far from being ostracized, Hasan Piker is getting to do another round of puff pieces in sympathetic outlets. > And you are comparing president of the country to twitch streamers. No; you are the one who spoke of "lawmakers and media figures", so I am comparing media figures to media figures.
    - hakunin 1y ago
      > I disagree that this is an accurate characterization of the side that isn't the "fringe far left". The evidence is there. Trump has been thrashing back and forth on tariffs, explaining 2 mutually-exclusive reasons to have them, and they justify it each time. Trump has been infringing on free speech and due process at levels beyond anything democrats have ever done (if you don't count republican conspiracy theories), and they justify it. I have listened to a lot of debates, and nobody can answer a question "what would Trump do that would make me vote for democrats instead". > Hasan Piker is getting to do another round Again, these people are not voters. > I am comparing media figures to media figures. I'm sorry, I should've been clearer. You said "It was not a Republican media figure who made that video […]" and "it's not the right-wingers who are being shown to have all sorts of clips". I understood that as you making a point that democrats are worse than republicans in general because of these examples. Which cannot be true because the entire Trump cabinet and most republican lawmakers are now doing the most heated and divisive rhetoric constantly and unapologetically, as though they are influencers and agitators, not government of a 2-party nation. Their actions speak even louder than words. So what you're pointing out in totality pales in comparison to what republicans are doing. And I'm saying: you cannot point to leftie twitch streamers that don't have any political power, and compare them to the literal White House and republican lawmakers, to judge the magnitude of the problem on each side. However, even if we single out just the media figures, it's absolutely insane how much conspiracy, lies, and divisive rhetoric has been fed into right wing minds. And it's almost awe-inspiring how lockstep all republican pundits are with each other. Nothing like that exists on the left.

zahlman 1y ago

> for 10 years democratic lawmakers and media figures are disavowing violence on both sides, while republican lawmakers and media figures are doing the opposite It was not a Republican media figure who made that video of herself holding "a mask styled to look like the severed, bloody head" of the POTUS. Among the biggest-name political Twitch streamers, it's not the right-wingers who are being shown to have all sorts of clips calling for political violence, making threats that include brandishing firearms on stream, doxxing people etc. — all of which are blatant TOS violations, but which never seem to get them banned. From the evidence available to me, the CEO of Twitch seems to be quite friendly with the most egregious of those streamers. > So when one side keeps constantly disavowing, and the other side keeps constantly attacking, at some point disavowing becomes literally the wrong thing to do. You can't lay down your weapon while the other person just keeps hitting, and expect the hitting to stop. I can assure you the other side feels the same way. There are even supercuts out there of Trump repeatedly disavowing violence that he was still accused of not disavowing.

hakunin 1y ago
> Twitch There are only 2 sides on twitch right now, both illiberal. One side has the political philosophy that amounts to "if Trump does it, we support it". The other side is a fringe far left (e.g. tankies). Except the former "philosophy" is supported by 90% of republicans, and the latter is ostracized by democrats. Even AOC (the once symbol of far leftism) shifted towards more mainstream liberal democratic values. These twitch lefties don't vote. They are politically nowhere in this country. And you are comparing president of the country to twitch streamers. President is not supposed to be an edgy instigator and influencer, he's supposed to be president for everyone. And yet, every disavowal that Trump made, he ended up blaming democrats in the same breath. He constantly berates everyone on the left, sues, destroys politically, or otherwise silences anyone who criticizes him. I'm supposed to feel like he's my president even if I didn't vote for him, but I cannot, because he makes that distinction very clear.
- zahlman 1y ago
  > One side has the political philosophy that amounts to "if Trump does it, we support it". I disagree that this is an accurate characterization of the side that isn't the "fringe far left". > and the latter is ostracized by democrats. It looks to me like, far from being ostracized, Hasan Piker is getting to do another round of puff pieces in sympathetic outlets. > And you are comparing president of the country to twitch streamers. No; you are the one who spoke of "lawmakers and media figures", so I am comparing media figures to media figures.
  - hakunin 1y ago
    > I disagree that this is an accurate characterization of the side that isn't the "fringe far left". The evidence is there. Trump has been thrashing back and forth on tariffs, explaining 2 mutually-exclusive reasons to have them, and they justify it each time. Trump has been infringing on free speech and due process at levels beyond anything democrats have ever done (if you don't count republican conspiracy theories), and they justify it. I have listened to a lot of debates, and nobody can answer a question "what would Trump do that would make me vote for democrats instead". > Hasan Piker is getting to do another round Again, these people are not voters. > I am comparing media figures to media figures. I'm sorry, I should've been clearer. You said "It was not a Republican media figure who made that video […]" and "it's not the right-wingers who are being shown to have all sorts of clips". I understood that as you making a point that democrats are worse than republicans in general because of these examples. Which cannot be true because the entire Trump cabinet and most republican lawmakers are now doing the most heated and divisive rhetoric constantly and unapologetically, as though they are influencers and agitators, not government of a 2-party nation. Their actions speak even louder than words. So what you're pointing out in totality pales in comparison to what republicans are doing. And I'm saying: you cannot point to leftie twitch streamers that don't have any political power, and compare them to the literal White House and republican lawmakers, to judge the magnitude of the problem on each side. However, even if we single out just the media figures, it's absolutely insane how much conspiracy, lies, and divisive rhetoric has been fed into right wing minds. And it's almost awe-inspiring how lockstep all republican pundits are with each other. Nothing like that exists on the left.