4 ms·

Its pretty easy to understand actually, and all of metropolitan California is the same way- A normal, dual income, middle class working family has an income of

by jppope 1y ago

Its pretty easy to understand actually, and all of metropolitan California is the same way- A normal, dual income, middle class working family has an income of ~$250K-$500K (Doctor + teacher, Lawyer and a Doctor, Business exec and Accountant, etc) and they're going to spend upwards of ~40% of their income on their house. thats going to have them spending $6K-$11K. Now they can handle a $1M home no problem. 3 bed 2 bath shitbox from the 70s sure thing... Anything to live in California. Same house in Kansas City is $300K but whatever. However, for them to go after a $2.5M+ property you need real money, a $5M house even more... you aren't working a normal person job to spend the estimated lifetime earnings of most Americans on a house... it just aint happening. So anything after ~$5M is a VASTLY better deal then the rat race housing. All of these dynamics can be figured out pretty easy thanks to prop 13, Californias insane income taxes, and the job market... if you can figure out a way to buy a house, hold on to it for dear life, never move, and work your entire life to pay for it. The only thing more consistent than people in the northeast wanting to move to California are death and taxes, which coincidentally prop 13 covers. lol

tills13 1y ago
Am I crazy or reading the wrong info or are you being hyperbolic when you say California has "insane" income taxes? As an example, the effective rate when making $200k is 25% including federal taxes. That's great. You get to live in a productive and supportive society. The only issue I see is that housing is expensive and $150k, as much as it can support a comfortable lifestyle, would be insufficient to ALSO buy a home. But what we're talking about here is a separate issue from housing. (your state taxes when making $100k would only be $2k, to preempt that retort)
- nicholasbraker 1y ago
  Damn, only 25%? Luxury!
- hylaride 1y ago
  The tone around "high taxes" are set by the uber-rich. Hilariously, most of them borrow against their shares to fund their lifestyles (where the interest is tax-deductible!) if they're even still resident in CA. That being said, California is an ungovernable mess where state-constitutional amendments dictate a huge percentage of taxation and spending. It'd otherwise be a great place to live if real estate prices were somehow brought into line, but alas...
  - wonderwonder 1y ago
    I feel like the Canadian style "just let it happen" approach to crime is a bit of a negative as well
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
skrebbel 1y ago
Nitpick, but > A normal, dual income, middle class working family > (Doctor + teacher, Lawyer and a Doctor, Business exec and Accountant, etc) That’s not the middle class.
- nabla9 1y ago
  That's the traditional middle class. "American Middle Class" is a clever political trick. It was created to remove "working class" from the vocabulary so that people could no longer identify as such. If we use only lifestyle indicators, such as making enough money to save and retire comfortably, having enough money to go on vacations and to restaurants frequently, and being able to buy a house, the middle class is shrinking.
- labcomputer 1y ago
  Lol. Doctors and lawyers are the very definition of middle class! Middle class is people who trade labor for money, but who sometimes have a (full or partial) ownership stake in the business they work for. They are what marxists might call the "petit bourgeoisie".
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > Doctors and lawyers are the very definition of middle class! Doctors and lawyers are often middle class (petit bourgeois) but also can be part of the better paid, highly educated segment of the working class (proletarian intelligentsia). Economic class isn’t about job title or even really strictly income, though it correlates to both.
    - labcomputer 1y ago
      I think we agree. The main point I was making is that doctors and lawyers (and tech workers!) are not members of some "upper" or "capitalist" (depending on which terms you prefer) class, irrespective of their income, because the value they collect is primarily a result of their labor.
      - 1y ago

by jppope 1y ago

tills13 1y ago

Am I crazy or reading the wrong info or are you being hyperbolic when you say California has "insane" income taxes? As an example, the effective rate when making $200k is 25% including federal taxes. That's great. You get to live in a productive and supportive society. The only issue I see is that housing is expensive and $150k, as much as it can support a comfortable lifestyle, would be insufficient to ALSO buy a home. But what we're talking about here is a separate issue from housing. (your state taxes when making $100k would only be $2k, to preempt that retort)

nicholasbraker 1y ago
Damn, only 25%? Luxury!
hylaride 1y ago
The tone around "high taxes" are set by the uber-rich. Hilariously, most of them borrow against their shares to fund their lifestyles (where the interest is tax-deductible!) if they're even still resident in CA. That being said, California is an ungovernable mess where state-constitutional amendments dictate a huge percentage of taxation and spending. It'd otherwise be a great place to live if real estate prices were somehow brought into line, but alas...
- wonderwonder 1y ago
  I feel like the Canadian style "just let it happen" approach to crime is a bit of a negative as well
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

skrebbel 1y ago

Nitpick, but > A normal, dual income, middle class working family > (Doctor + teacher, Lawyer and a Doctor, Business exec and Accountant, etc) That’s not the middle class.

nabla9 1y ago
That's the traditional middle class. "American Middle Class" is a clever political trick. It was created to remove "working class" from the vocabulary so that people could no longer identify as such. If we use only lifestyle indicators, such as making enough money to save and retire comfortably, having enough money to go on vacations and to restaurants frequently, and being able to buy a house, the middle class is shrinking.
labcomputer 1y ago
Lol. Doctors and lawyers are the very definition of middle class! Middle class is people who trade labor for money, but who sometimes have a (full or partial) ownership stake in the business they work for. They are what marxists might call the "petit bourgeoisie".
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Doctors and lawyers are the very definition of middle class! Doctors and lawyers are often middle class (petit bourgeois) but also can be part of the better paid, highly educated segment of the working class (proletarian intelligentsia). Economic class isn’t about job title or even really strictly income, though it correlates to both.
  - labcomputer 1y ago
    I think we agree. The main point I was making is that doctors and lawyers (and tech workers!) are not members of some "upper" or "capitalist" (depending on which terms you prefer) class, irrespective of their income, because the value they collect is primarily a result of their labor.
    - 1y ago