6 ms·

I think they are really trying to discourage usage. It used to be a nice, fast, and simple http server (when it was originally written), but from a quick look i

by paul 18y ago

I think they are really trying to discourage usage. It used to be a nice, fast, and simple http server (when it was originally written), but from a quick look it appears that they made all "enterprisy" with FactoryFactories and whatnot. Java the language is ok, but I the culture is dangerous.

timf 18y ago
"the culture" There is no single Java culture.
- anuraggoel 18y ago
  Agreed, but I think paul is referring to the most prevalent culture, which, unfortunately, has a tendency to over-engineer. Here's a completely unscientific comparison: Java: http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=FactoryFactory+lang%3Ajava&sbtn=Search http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=Factory... Python: http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=FactoryFactory+lang%3Apython&sbtn=Search http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=Factory...
  - timf 18y ago
    I understand what he was referring to... but there is a pretty big part of the Java world where things are actually kind of slick. So I don't like seeing such a blanket and semi-derogatory statement.
    - paul 18y ago
      We probably have different definitions of "slick". Nevertheless, I'm curious where I can find this slick code just in case... BTW, I'm not just randomly bashing Java. I've actually been using it since 1995, worked briefly at Sun/Javasoft, started one of the largest Java projects at Google, and used to like programming in it. However, the trend that I've noticed is that I like Java less and less because the culture has fallen into a degenerate process of building towering abstractions. Put simply, their metric of "good" seems to be very different from mine.
      - timf 18y ago
        Well I'm only on my fifth year with it (at work) so maybe I have not been given as much a chance to get disillusioned. It's not my choice "as a language": I can't stand using Java with just a text editor whereas that's very nice with Python for example. I'm talking more about the platform. Spring (the small focused parts of it like IoC and AOP), Hibernate, Terracotta, Lucene, Jetty, YourKit, Clover, and many of the OSGI/JMX deployment solutions are all just polished, productive and out of the way to me with very nice integrations into my IDE. Yeah, IntelliJ -- that's probably a big part of my ability to like Java, to be honest. I'm with you on the abstractions thing, I've avoided J2EE etc.
        moe 18y ago
        I can't stand using Java with just a text editor Same here and imho that's quite an alarming indicator for the "towering abstractions" that paul mentioned. When you can't realistically navigate a significant codebase without tool support anymore then many of the components just aren't "out of the way" as much as they used to be or should be. Personally I jumped ship when java went through the heights of its XML disease which is apparently cooling down nowadays. The available toolchain (part of which you mentioned) is mighty impressive, no question. But it's the amount of boilerplate- and meta-code required to glue the stuff together that's driving many of us away.
        timf 18y ago
        "Towering" implies unweidly or disorganized to me and there are certainly parts of the Java world like that -- to be avoided. The number of abstractions/libraries seems irrelevant to the discussion if they can indeed be out of your way (you're saying because of all the boilerplate etc. that they aren't, so I guess we're talking about different things). If they're powerful and there's a small surface error for dealing with them then great, that's a high return on investment situation. Getting to that small surface error takes an IDE sometimes which is unfortunate on some level but I don't find anything fundamentally wrong with it. Personally, I can't stand even simple programs in Java with a text editor because of the amount of subdirectories you need to suddenly be aware of... org/blah/blah/blah/blah/blah (this is how I learned it originally).
green 18y ago
Once you get many "enterprisy" minds, they will be screwing stuff badly. Startups usually proven to build nice and simple solutions, without fat. ;-)
vsiva68 18y ago
I've heard this sentiment echoed numerous times (esp. by people who love Python).Could you guys clarify more as to the different things to keep in mind while writing "good" Java? Are there examples of Java projects you'd consider good and worth learning from? As far as Python (and dynamic languages in general) goes, I haven't heard any good responses to Ted Dziuba's blog post: http://teddziuba.com/2008/12/python-makes-me-nervous.html http://teddziuba.com/2008/12/python-makes-me-nervous.html I can see that a startup would prefer Python/Ruby to Java, but what about bigger projects?
- anamax 18y ago
  Dziuba says "In Java, static typing makes the method signature into a recipe: it's all the shit you need to make this method work." What definition of "work" are we using? He also write "As a programmer in a team, you need rules. You need structure. You need order." Some of us think that the rules matter, that it's not just having rules, but having the right rules.
  - tlrobinson 18y ago
    His definition of "work" appears to be "compile".
- anuraggoel 18y ago
  Apache Lucene, Solr and Wicket are all great, light-weight open source Java projects. Ted Dziuba's argument doesn't seem to be Java vs. Python for large projects - it's more statically typed vs. dynamically typed languages and checked vs. run-time exceptions - or compile-time error checking vs. run-time error checking. There are several large companies that use Python for X and Java for Y. I don't think either language has significant advantages for large projects that the other doesn't have, assuming that developers can utilize the strengths of the language. I was working with someone who wanted to implement a prepaid card application (the ultimate enterprisy app) and his biggest objection to using Python was the inability to find Python developers in India. He was going to pay the bills, and I didn't have a counter-argument.
litewulf 18y ago
I presume that in most cases FactoryFactories exist for testability, and aren't created just to check that off on the enterprise checklist ;)

by paul 18y ago

timf 18y ago

"the culture" There is no single Java culture.

anuraggoel 18y ago
Agreed, but I think paul is referring to the most prevalent culture, which, unfortunately, has a tendency to over-engineer. Here's a completely unscientific comparison: Java: http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=FactoryFactory+lang%3Ajava&sbtn=Search http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=Factory... Python: http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=FactoryFactory+lang%3Apython&sbtn=Search http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=Factory...
- timf 18y ago
  I understand what he was referring to... but there is a pretty big part of the Java world where things are actually kind of slick. So I don't like seeing such a blanket and semi-derogatory statement.
  - paul 18y ago
    We probably have different definitions of "slick". Nevertheless, I'm curious where I can find this slick code just in case... BTW, I'm not just randomly bashing Java. I've actually been using it since 1995, worked briefly at Sun/Javasoft, started one of the largest Java projects at Google, and used to like programming in it. However, the trend that I've noticed is that I like Java less and less because the culture has fallen into a degenerate process of building towering abstractions. Put simply, their metric of "good" seems to be very different from mine.
    - timf 18y ago
      Well I'm only on my fifth year with it (at work) so maybe I have not been given as much a chance to get disillusioned. It's not my choice "as a language": I can't stand using Java with just a text editor whereas that's very nice with Python for example. I'm talking more about the platform. Spring (the small focused parts of it like IoC and AOP), Hibernate, Terracotta, Lucene, Jetty, YourKit, Clover, and many of the OSGI/JMX deployment solutions are all just polished, productive and out of the way to me with very nice integrations into my IDE. Yeah, IntelliJ -- that's probably a big part of my ability to like Java, to be honest. I'm with you on the abstractions thing, I've avoided J2EE etc.
      - moe 18y ago
        I can't stand using Java with just a text editor Same here and imho that's quite an alarming indicator for the "towering abstractions" that paul mentioned. When you can't realistically navigate a significant codebase without tool support anymore then many of the components just aren't "out of the way" as much as they used to be or should be. Personally I jumped ship when java went through the heights of its XML disease which is apparently cooling down nowadays. The available toolchain (part of which you mentioned) is mighty impressive, no question. But it's the amount of boilerplate- and meta-code required to glue the stuff together that's driving many of us away.
        timf 18y ago
        "Towering" implies unweidly or disorganized to me and there are certainly parts of the Java world like that -- to be avoided. The number of abstractions/libraries seems irrelevant to the discussion if they can indeed be out of your way (you're saying because of all the boilerplate etc. that they aren't, so I guess we're talking about different things). If they're powerful and there's a small surface error for dealing with them then great, that's a high return on investment situation. Getting to that small surface error takes an IDE sometimes which is unfortunate on some level but I don't find anything fundamentally wrong with it. Personally, I can't stand even simple programs in Java with a text editor because of the amount of subdirectories you need to suddenly be aware of... org/blah/blah/blah/blah/blah (this is how I learned it originally).

green 18y ago

Once you get many "enterprisy" minds, they will be screwing stuff badly. Startups usually proven to build nice and simple solutions, without fat. ;-)

vsiva68 18y ago

I've heard this sentiment echoed numerous times (esp. by people who love Python).Could you guys clarify more as to the different things to keep in mind while writing "good" Java? Are there examples of Java projects you'd consider good and worth learning from? As far as Python (and dynamic languages in general) goes, I haven't heard any good responses to Ted Dziuba's blog post: http://teddziuba.com/2008/12/python-makes-me-nervous.html http://teddziuba.com/2008/12/python-makes-me-nervous.html I can see that a startup would prefer Python/Ruby to Java, but what about bigger projects?

anamax 18y ago
Dziuba says "In Java, static typing makes the method signature into a recipe: it's all the shit you need to make this method work." What definition of "work" are we using? He also write "As a programmer in a team, you need rules. You need structure. You need order." Some of us think that the rules matter, that it's not just having rules, but having the right rules.
- tlrobinson 18y ago
  His definition of "work" appears to be "compile".
anuraggoel 18y ago
Apache Lucene, Solr and Wicket are all great, light-weight open source Java projects. Ted Dziuba's argument doesn't seem to be Java vs. Python for large projects - it's more statically typed vs. dynamically typed languages and checked vs. run-time exceptions - or compile-time error checking vs. run-time error checking. There are several large companies that use Python for X and Java for Y. I don't think either language has significant advantages for large projects that the other doesn't have, assuming that developers can utilize the strengths of the language. I was working with someone who wanted to implement a prepaid card application (the ultimate enterprisy app) and his biggest objection to using Python was the inability to find Python developers in India. He was going to pay the bills, and I didn't have a counter-argument.

litewulf 18y ago

I presume that in most cases FactoryFactories exist for testability, and aren't created just to check that off on the enterprise checklist ;)