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> Nonetheless, I don't think there is anything inherently so wrong about the US college/university system. People outside of the US wouldn't be spending buckets

by tete 14y ago

> Nonetheless, I don't think there is anything inherently so wrong about the US college/university system. People outside of the US wouldn't be spending buckets' loads of money to send their kids here. Like MIT and Berkeley? Yep, those are said to be quite nice, but I don't know anyone who on their own free will would go to the US for a degree there. At leas here (Central Europe) it has the the image of being bad and expensive.

khuey 14y ago
And yet 23% of MIT international students are from Europe. I think this is the point where I should say that your anecdote doesn't replace data.
- tete 14y ago
  Actually it appears like you misunderstood me, because what you just said proves what I wrote, which is that there are exceptions like the MIT. However, I know enough Americans personally to know that most universities aren't at this level. EDIT: Sorry, I just reread it. I really didn't point out well, that I consider the MIT or Berkeley an exception, but saying that they are good university and doubting anyone here would say they are not doing a great job I falsely amused that would be clear. Yep, the MIT and Berkeley are great university and like a lot of other people I'd love to go there, but that's not what I was talking about and that's what I wanted to make clear mentioning them. But also think about why elite universities have such a percentage of foreigners. Do you know the percentages of other universities? I am curious, because when I think about the university I study at, which currently is in a huge mess, because a governmental coalition we had for two periods (for the first time in history) changed the laws regarding its financial support in a way that it was against the constitution and therefor was killed off. Since nobody acted upon this on time and there are now no appropriate laws and most universities are struggling with big debts (for the first time). Still universities here are free, still the universities here are pioneering in many fields, winning international awards, etc. If the financial situation doesn't change (the laws aren't fixed in what way ever) this situation is going to change, but despite strong restrictions 22.57% (just checked on this year) of the students here are from other countries. This is for computer science on one of the worse universities here (I for myself am thinking about going to another state for a better one), which isn't really the best field. Most people come here to study medicine here. That's a famous field here. Lots of international politicians come here for health related stuff, so I am sure the numbers there would be different. They are also the ones that are always the first in transplanting various organs, world records when it comes to the number of them, etc. What I want to say is that the fact that you have one or two very famous universities in the field of technology doesn't say your system is good. I can study here too, research whatever I want, pioneering in various areas, get everything I need, still I know very well how messed up our system is (and was for at least a decade now). So I really don't think that the comment about everyone going to the US is true, just because you have 23% Europeans at your elite university. The reason by the way could also be that they have rich parents coming from Europe, because as a matter of fact forty(!) percent of Ph.D. scientists working in the United States were born abroad[1]. See, I don't want to talk bad the educational system in the US, but when a lot of US American citizen go to Cuba, which is basically the enemy of the united states, has huge financial problems, which due to a large part are because of economical sanctions that would even mean the end for a country like Germany then saying the US educational system appears to just be wrong (also see PISA). This doesn't mean the US doesn't have some damn fine universities like MIT, Berkeley, etc. or that many European countries are doing so much better (I explained how really messed up the university I am going to is - even if there are many that are off worse), but if you look to Scandinavia or Asia then things could be _way_ better. [1] http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf
michaelochurch 14y ago
At leas here (Central Europe) it has the the image of being bad and expensive. American tuition is astronomical: $40,000-per-year tuition levels are now the norm. Including room, board, books and expenses, most families cut out $60-70,000 per student, per year, because most of the best universities are in extremely expensive locations. Educational quality, I think, is actually pretty good in US colleges and universities. If you want to learn a lot, you can. If you want to dive in to cutting-edge research, or to learn an incredible amount about a topic that interests you, the people and resources are available. The students? Not as much. The focus in a lot of undergraduate colleges (and this goes the whole way to the top) is on networking and partying and drugging and fucking much more than on learning. It's not the professors' fault: they love it when they get good students, but there aren't many of them. (I went to a liberal arts college where many of the students were dedicated, but a lot of my friends, even at prestigious universities, found that real students were a minority: maybe 10 to 30 percent are really good and the rest are just there for the scene and stamp.) Undergraduate college has become a finishing school for the well-to-do, and business school is way worse (the students are terrible and their sense of entitlement is extreme; professors have been chastised for refusing to move classes to accommodate individual students' social lives). You can learn a hell of a lot in a US university, but no one forces you to do so, and a lot of people squander the opportunity outright.

by tete 14y ago

khuey 14y ago

And yet 23% of MIT international students are from Europe. I think this is the point where I should say that your anecdote doesn't replace data.

tete 14y ago
Actually it appears like you misunderstood me, because what you just said proves what I wrote, which is that there are exceptions like the MIT. However, I know enough Americans personally to know that most universities aren't at this level. EDIT: Sorry, I just reread it. I really didn't point out well, that I consider the MIT or Berkeley an exception, but saying that they are good university and doubting anyone here would say they are not doing a great job I falsely amused that would be clear. Yep, the MIT and Berkeley are great university and like a lot of other people I'd love to go there, but that's not what I was talking about and that's what I wanted to make clear mentioning them. But also think about why elite universities have such a percentage of foreigners. Do you know the percentages of other universities? I am curious, because when I think about the university I study at, which currently is in a huge mess, because a governmental coalition we had for two periods (for the first time in history) changed the laws regarding its financial support in a way that it was against the constitution and therefor was killed off. Since nobody acted upon this on time and there are now no appropriate laws and most universities are struggling with big debts (for the first time). Still universities here are free, still the universities here are pioneering in many fields, winning international awards, etc. If the financial situation doesn't change (the laws aren't fixed in what way ever) this situation is going to change, but despite strong restrictions 22.57% (just checked on this year) of the students here are from other countries. This is for computer science on one of the worse universities here (I for myself am thinking about going to another state for a better one), which isn't really the best field. Most people come here to study medicine here. That's a famous field here. Lots of international politicians come here for health related stuff, so I am sure the numbers there would be different. They are also the ones that are always the first in transplanting various organs, world records when it comes to the number of them, etc. What I want to say is that the fact that you have one or two very famous universities in the field of technology doesn't say your system is good. I can study here too, research whatever I want, pioneering in various areas, get everything I need, still I know very well how messed up our system is (and was for at least a decade now). So I really don't think that the comment about everyone going to the US is true, just because you have 23% Europeans at your elite university. The reason by the way could also be that they have rich parents coming from Europe, because as a matter of fact forty(!) percent of Ph.D. scientists working in the United States were born abroad[1]. See, I don't want to talk bad the educational system in the US, but when a lot of US American citizen go to Cuba, which is basically the enemy of the united states, has huge financial problems, which due to a large part are because of economical sanctions that would even mean the end for a country like Germany then saying the US educational system appears to just be wrong (also see PISA). This doesn't mean the US doesn't have some damn fine universities like MIT, Berkeley, etc. or that many European countries are doing so much better (I explained how really messed up the university I am going to is - even if there are many that are off worse), but if you look to Scandinavia or Asia then things could be _way_ better. [1] http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf

michaelochurch 14y ago

At leas here (Central Europe) it has the the image of being bad and expensive. American tuition is astronomical: $40,000-per-year tuition levels are now the norm. Including room, board, books and expenses, most families cut out $60-70,000 per student, per year, because most of the best universities are in extremely expensive locations. Educational quality, I think, is actually pretty good in US colleges and universities. If you want to learn a lot, you can. If you want to dive in to cutting-edge research, or to learn an incredible amount about a topic that interests you, the people and resources are available. The students? Not as much. The focus in a lot of undergraduate colleges (and this goes the whole way to the top) is on networking and partying and drugging and fucking much more than on learning. It's not the professors' fault: they love it when they get good students, but there aren't many of them. (I went to a liberal arts college where many of the students were dedicated, but a lot of my friends, even at prestigious universities, found that real students were a minority: maybe 10 to 30 percent are really good and the rest are just there for the scene and stamp.) Undergraduate college has become a finishing school for the well-to-do, and business school is way worse (the students are terrible and their sense of entitlement is extreme; professors have been chastised for refusing to move classes to accommodate individual students' social lives). You can learn a hell of a lot in a US university, but no one forces you to do so, and a lot of people squander the opportunity outright.