5 ms·

I think it is the fact that we have such a ``weak" education system that America is capable of institutions such as Google, Apple, and the whole startup culture

I think it is the fact that we have such a ``weak" education system that America is capable of institutions such as Google, Apple, and the whole startup culture. Lately, this has been less and less relevant due to the Internet (as long as you have uncensored Internet, it probably doesn't matter which locality you're in). Nonetheless, I don't think there is anything inherently so wrong about the US college/university system. People outside of the US wouldn't be spending buckets' loads of money to send their kids here. And lately, Canada seems to be absorbing a lot of influence as a tech powerhouse. I think it is the lack of structure and social order that allows anyone to question any values. As long as America keeps the best and brightest from all over the world in the country, America will stay on top. However, the Internet has been the great equalizer. It is probable and possible to build great companies anywhere, especially if your products are digital.

michaelochurch 14y ago
Rich people from all over the world send their kids to school here because rich people from all over the world send their kids to school here. At one time, it was "studying at Oxford". Now it's studying in America. If you have a top-50 U.S. university degree, when you go back you will be one or two levels below the CEO in your first job. That has value to the U.S. and it obviously pumps a lot of money into American universities, but it has more to do with social signaling than quality of education. That's not to say that the top American universities aren't very good (they are) but that's not what it's really about.
bugsbunnyak 14y ago
Nonetheless, I don't think there is anything inherently so wrong about the US college/university system. People outside of the US wouldn't be spending buckets' loads of money to send their kids here. And lately, Canada seems to be absorbing a lot of influence as a tech powerhouse. Specific education systems in the US are on-par with the best in the world. People outside the US are not sending their kids to inner-city New Orleans, Detroit, etc. - they are sending kids to Boston suburbs and private schools. The problem is not "all our schools are terrible", the problem is the massive variance in outcomes.
tete 14y ago
> Nonetheless, I don't think there is anything inherently so wrong about the US college/university system. People outside of the US wouldn't be spending buckets' loads of money to send their kids here. Like MIT and Berkeley? Yep, those are said to be quite nice, but I don't know anyone who on their own free will would go to the US for a degree there. At leas here (Central Europe) it has the the image of being bad and expensive.
- khuey 14y ago
  And yet 23% of MIT international students are from Europe. I think this is the point where I should say that your anecdote doesn't replace data.
  - tete 14y ago
    Actually it appears like you misunderstood me, because what you just said proves what I wrote, which is that there are exceptions like the MIT. However, I know enough Americans personally to know that most universities aren't at this level. EDIT: Sorry, I just reread it. I really didn't point out well, that I consider the MIT or Berkeley an exception, but saying that they are good university and doubting anyone here would say they are not doing a great job I falsely amused that would be clear. Yep, the MIT and Berkeley are great university and like a lot of other people I'd love to go there, but that's not what I was talking about and that's what I wanted to make clear mentioning them. But also think about why elite universities have such a percentage of foreigners. Do you know the percentages of other universities? I am curious, because when I think about the university I study at, which currently is in a huge mess, because a governmental coalition we had for two periods (for the first time in history) changed the laws regarding its financial support in a way that it was against the constitution and therefor was killed off. Since nobody acted upon this on time and there are now no appropriate laws and most universities are struggling with big debts (for the first time). Still universities here are free, still the universities here are pioneering in many fields, winning international awards, etc. If the financial situation doesn't change (the laws aren't fixed in what way ever) this situation is going to change, but despite strong restrictions 22.57% (just checked on this year) of the students here are from other countries. This is for computer science on one of the worse universities here (I for myself am thinking about going to another state for a better one), which isn't really the best field. Most people come here to study medicine here. That's a famous field here. Lots of international politicians come here for health related stuff, so I am sure the numbers there would be different. They are also the ones that are always the first in transplanting various organs, world records when it comes to the number of them, etc. What I want to say is that the fact that you have one or two very famous universities in the field of technology doesn't say your system is good. I can study here too, research whatever I want, pioneering in various areas, get everything I need, still I know very well how messed up our system is (and was for at least a decade now). So I really don't think that the comment about everyone going to the US is true, just because you have 23% Europeans at your elite university. The reason by the way could also be that they have rich parents coming from Europe, because as a matter of fact forty(!) percent of Ph.D. scientists working in the United States were born abroad[1]. See, I don't want to talk bad the educational system in the US, but when a lot of US American citizen go to Cuba, which is basically the enemy of the united states, has huge financial problems, which due to a large part are because of economical sanctions that would even mean the end for a country like Germany then saying the US educational system appears to just be wrong (also see PISA). This doesn't mean the US doesn't have some damn fine universities like MIT, Berkeley, etc. or that many European countries are doing so much better (I explained how really messed up the university I am going to is - even if there are many that are off worse), but if you look to Scandinavia or Asia then things could be _way_ better. [1] http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf
rayiner 14y ago
It's misleading to look at Google and Apple and decide things are fine. These companies are being run by top-of-the curve people who would have succeeded no matter what the education system was. Instead, look at the middle 90% of the curve. What is the state of a 25th %-ile person in the US versus say Germany? That's just as important to look at. And no, the internet does not solve everything. It doesn't even begin to solve many of the problems that plague Americans who aren't already privileged in some way. Here in Chicago, the internet doesn't help all the black kids who don't even have safe schools to go to, much less good ones.
- jasonjei 14y ago
  If that's true, why is disproportionate number of companies such as Google and Apple and Microsoft thriving here if they could be anywhere? I believe there is a secret sauce in the US or Google would have been from elsewhere.
Wilya 14y ago
From a purely educational perspective, going to the US doesn't make any sense. You can get the same thing in Europe for about 10 times cheaper. Of course, European universities don't have the marketing budget to compete, so it's not how things appear. PhD-level education in the US seems to be worth it, because you get more resources than elsewhere in the world. Below that level, an education in the US is either social signaling, or a way to "have a foot in" to be able to work in the US afterwards.

michaelochurch 14y ago

Rich people from all over the world send their kids to school here because rich people from all over the world send their kids to school here. At one time, it was "studying at Oxford". Now it's studying in America. If you have a top-50 U.S. university degree, when you go back you will be one or two levels below the CEO in your first job. That has value to the U.S. and it obviously pumps a lot of money into American universities, but it has more to do with social signaling than quality of education. That's not to say that the top American universities aren't very good (they are) but that's not what it's really about.

bugsbunnyak 14y ago

Nonetheless, I don't think there is anything inherently so wrong about the US college/university system. People outside of the US wouldn't be spending buckets' loads of money to send their kids here. And lately, Canada seems to be absorbing a lot of influence as a tech powerhouse. Specific education systems in the US are on-par with the best in the world. People outside the US are not sending their kids to inner-city New Orleans, Detroit, etc. - they are sending kids to Boston suburbs and private schools. The problem is not "all our schools are terrible", the problem is the massive variance in outcomes.

tete 14y ago

> Nonetheless, I don't think there is anything inherently so wrong about the US college/university system. People outside of the US wouldn't be spending buckets' loads of money to send their kids here. Like MIT and Berkeley? Yep, those are said to be quite nice, but I don't know anyone who on their own free will would go to the US for a degree there. At leas here (Central Europe) it has the the image of being bad and expensive.

khuey 14y ago
And yet 23% of MIT international students are from Europe. I think this is the point where I should say that your anecdote doesn't replace data.
- tete 14y ago
  Actually it appears like you misunderstood me, because what you just said proves what I wrote, which is that there are exceptions like the MIT. However, I know enough Americans personally to know that most universities aren't at this level. EDIT: Sorry, I just reread it. I really didn't point out well, that I consider the MIT or Berkeley an exception, but saying that they are good university and doubting anyone here would say they are not doing a great job I falsely amused that would be clear. Yep, the MIT and Berkeley are great university and like a lot of other people I'd love to go there, but that's not what I was talking about and that's what I wanted to make clear mentioning them. But also think about why elite universities have such a percentage of foreigners. Do you know the percentages of other universities? I am curious, because when I think about the university I study at, which currently is in a huge mess, because a governmental coalition we had for two periods (for the first time in history) changed the laws regarding its financial support in a way that it was against the constitution and therefor was killed off. Since nobody acted upon this on time and there are now no appropriate laws and most universities are struggling with big debts (for the first time). Still universities here are free, still the universities here are pioneering in many fields, winning international awards, etc. If the financial situation doesn't change (the laws aren't fixed in what way ever) this situation is going to change, but despite strong restrictions 22.57% (just checked on this year) of the students here are from other countries. This is for computer science on one of the worse universities here (I for myself am thinking about going to another state for a better one), which isn't really the best field. Most people come here to study medicine here. That's a famous field here. Lots of international politicians come here for health related stuff, so I am sure the numbers there would be different. They are also the ones that are always the first in transplanting various organs, world records when it comes to the number of them, etc. What I want to say is that the fact that you have one or two very famous universities in the field of technology doesn't say your system is good. I can study here too, research whatever I want, pioneering in various areas, get everything I need, still I know very well how messed up our system is (and was for at least a decade now). So I really don't think that the comment about everyone going to the US is true, just because you have 23% Europeans at your elite university. The reason by the way could also be that they have rich parents coming from Europe, because as a matter of fact forty(!) percent of Ph.D. scientists working in the United States were born abroad[1]. See, I don't want to talk bad the educational system in the US, but when a lot of US American citizen go to Cuba, which is basically the enemy of the united states, has huge financial problems, which due to a large part are because of economical sanctions that would even mean the end for a country like Germany then saying the US educational system appears to just be wrong (also see PISA). This doesn't mean the US doesn't have some damn fine universities like MIT, Berkeley, etc. or that many European countries are doing so much better (I explained how really messed up the university I am going to is - even if there are many that are off worse), but if you look to Scandinavia or Asia then things could be _way_ better. [1] http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf

rayiner 14y ago

It's misleading to look at Google and Apple and decide things are fine. These companies are being run by top-of-the curve people who would have succeeded no matter what the education system was. Instead, look at the middle 90% of the curve. What is the state of a 25th %-ile person in the US versus say Germany? That's just as important to look at. And no, the internet does not solve everything. It doesn't even begin to solve many of the problems that plague Americans who aren't already privileged in some way. Here in Chicago, the internet doesn't help all the black kids who don't even have safe schools to go to, much less good ones.

jasonjei 14y ago
If that's true, why is disproportionate number of companies such as Google and Apple and Microsoft thriving here if they could be anywhere? I believe there is a secret sauce in the US or Google would have been from elsewhere.

Wilya 14y ago

From a purely educational perspective, going to the US doesn't make any sense. You can get the same thing in Europe for about 10 times cheaper. Of course, European universities don't have the marketing budget to compete, so it's not how things appear. PhD-level education in the US seems to be worth it, because you get more resources than elsewhere in the world. Below that level, an education in the US is either social signaling, or a way to "have a foot in" to be able to work in the US afterwards.