4 ms·

This is a common framing by neo-liberal / centrist folks: That the US/West is intelligently and methodologically utilizing Israel for some tactical geopolitical

This is a common framing by neo-liberal / centrist folks: That the US/West is intelligently and methodologically utilizing Israel for some tactical geopolitical advantage / force projection. It may have played out that way in the past... but at this point Israel is lobbying the US gov't heavily and has bought out most politicians via AIPAC. The myth of Israel being a "bastion" between the west and terrorist Arabs is pretty much a veneer... they are themselves responsible for generating much this terrorism. They bombed the shit out of Lebanon and who would've thunk it Hezbollah popped up.

dotancohen 1y ago
> They bombed the shit out of Lebanon and who would've thunk it Hezbollah popped up. You state that as if you are unaware of the cross border attacks originating in Lebanon. How about "Armed groups in Lebanon bomb the shit out of Israeli citizens, and who would've thunk it the Israeli armed forces struck back".
- scrubs 1y ago
  Having watched Israel deal with their neighbors since the 80s, I am generally inclined to give the benefit of doubt to Israel. However over the last 5 years my attitude has changed. Israel and the Palestinians (focus esp on Palestinian kids) are two screwed over peoples screwing themselves over from a place of stubbornness, reprisal. Who's right depends on how far you wanna go back in tit for tat, which is rhetorically arbitrary. The US stance should be: - Israel will recognize Palestine as a state and Israel stay the hell out their business. Israel will remove their camps from palestine. - Palestine gets the control they want/need and with it commeasurate accountability. Therefore, - US support is withdrawn until two state done Palestine needs to: - provide governance for their citizens without playing footsies with terrorists. It's time for them to put up or shut up. From a US standpoint and as a US citizen I'm pissed at the idiocy we've done to the middle east. I'm also sick and tired of having entanglements from Israel or oil. We've got to get our act together and focus.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    I happen to agree with every single word you said. I will emphasize, however, there are two horrible complications. They are pretty much the root of all the problems you see today. First, borders. Israel's internationally recognized borders encompass all the West Bank and Gaza - the areas of Mandatory Palestine. Gaza and the West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan militarily, but the current borders between those two territories and 1948 Israel are only ceasefire lines, not borders. Despite 19 years of there being no Jews in either territory after being ethnically cleaned by the occupying forces, both territories have literal millennia of history of Jews living in there. And Jews live there today. The Jewish state unilaterally uprooted all Jews living in the Gaza strip in 2005, which is widely regarded as a social mistake and a security mistake, and there is very little chance that this will be done again in the West Bank. Secondly, education. The people of Gaza and the West Bank were prevented from establishing functions of state by UNRWA. In the West bank, the PA currently rules and does a decent job of providing state services - far below the standards anyone would actually want to live in, but able to be rehabilitated. In Gaza however, Hamas has been providing state services in parallel with UNRWA. However, UNRWA was largely responsible for children's education in both areas. UNRWA's curriculum teaches that Jews are to be genocided from the holy land, and that the entire areas of Mandatory Palestine are to be part of the Palestinian state. They teach that dying to kill Jews is the highest honor that one could achieve in Palestinian society. Many Westerners, and of course Israelis, have a hard time imagining a peaceful Palestinian state established when these are the values of the population. Remember, no matter what the final borders will be, they will be long and hard to defend, and we are wary of a hostile population amassed on those borders.

dotancohen 1y ago

> They bombed the shit out of Lebanon and who would've thunk it Hezbollah popped up. You state that as if you are unaware of the cross border attacks originating in Lebanon. How about "Armed groups in Lebanon bomb the shit out of Israeli citizens, and who would've thunk it the Israeli armed forces struck back".

scrubs 1y ago
Having watched Israel deal with their neighbors since the 80s, I am generally inclined to give the benefit of doubt to Israel. However over the last 5 years my attitude has changed. Israel and the Palestinians (focus esp on Palestinian kids) are two screwed over peoples screwing themselves over from a place of stubbornness, reprisal. Who's right depends on how far you wanna go back in tit for tat, which is rhetorically arbitrary. The US stance should be: - Israel will recognize Palestine as a state and Israel stay the hell out their business. Israel will remove their camps from palestine. - Palestine gets the control they want/need and with it commeasurate accountability. Therefore, - US support is withdrawn until two state done Palestine needs to: - provide governance for their citizens without playing footsies with terrorists. It's time for them to put up or shut up. From a US standpoint and as a US citizen I'm pissed at the idiocy we've done to the middle east. I'm also sick and tired of having entanglements from Israel or oil. We've got to get our act together and focus.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  I happen to agree with every single word you said. I will emphasize, however, there are two horrible complications. They are pretty much the root of all the problems you see today. First, borders. Israel's internationally recognized borders encompass all the West Bank and Gaza - the areas of Mandatory Palestine. Gaza and the West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan militarily, but the current borders between those two territories and 1948 Israel are only ceasefire lines, not borders. Despite 19 years of there being no Jews in either territory after being ethnically cleaned by the occupying forces, both territories have literal millennia of history of Jews living in there. And Jews live there today. The Jewish state unilaterally uprooted all Jews living in the Gaza strip in 2005, which is widely regarded as a social mistake and a security mistake, and there is very little chance that this will be done again in the West Bank. Secondly, education. The people of Gaza and the West Bank were prevented from establishing functions of state by UNRWA. In the West bank, the PA currently rules and does a decent job of providing state services - far below the standards anyone would actually want to live in, but able to be rehabilitated. In Gaza however, Hamas has been providing state services in parallel with UNRWA. However, UNRWA was largely responsible for children's education in both areas. UNRWA's curriculum teaches that Jews are to be genocided from the holy land, and that the entire areas of Mandatory Palestine are to be part of the Palestinian state. They teach that dying to kill Jews is the highest honor that one could achieve in Palestinian society. Many Westerners, and of course Israelis, have a hard time imagining a peaceful Palestinian state established when these are the values of the population. Remember, no matter what the final borders will be, they will be long and hard to defend, and we are wary of a hostile population amassed on those borders.