8 ms·

VDG must be so busy that my #1 feature request for KDE, support for smart copy&paste in Konsole, has been stuck in bikeshedding hell for almost 5 years because

VDG must be so busy that my #1 feature request for KDE, support for smart copy&paste in Konsole, has been stuck in bikeshedding hell for almost 5 years because the maintainer didn't want to merge an optional feature without the VDG go-ahead :( I love open source and have been running Linux since 1999, but my experience of contributing to both KDE and GNOME is your PRs never go anywhere unless you're part of the inner cabal of maintainers, otherwise any small bugfix or feature goes into bikeshedding mode, and it's the reason I don't contribute any more. That said, I run KDE now after two decades of GNOME. It's pretty good and has been looking good for a while now.

mixmastamyk 1y ago
Konsole is my least favorite terminal because of all the klutter. Have to remove several buttons, and the context menu with hundreds of options can’t be simplified to my knowledge.
- WD-42 1y ago
  This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ What's up with the massive amount of chrome used for nothing except new tab/copy/paste buttons? Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button? Compare it to gnome console, or any other terminal really, and you will get far more terminal output for the size of the window, as it should be. And it's not just Konsole. So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content, for things you will never use or have well established keyboard shortcuts already.
  - sho_hn 1y ago
    In Konsole's defense, this is the actual default appearance of a Konsole window when you launch it for the first time in the current stable release: https://mero.ng/i/lWMWazUP.png https://mero.ng/i/lWMWazUP.png The screenshot on the website has all sorts of optional bits enabled, and I would readily agree is not a good showcase. The reason all those optional bits exist is because you'd be surprised who ends up using a terminal emulator in a general purpose desktop GUI used in many large IT deployments. E.g. a lot of folks who are used to PuTTy on Windows and want a little GUI for SSH connections, and for them this is the game changer. The "try to show all the goods in your screenshot" mindset is really not a good one though, agree :)
    - mixmastamyk 1y ago
      That's better, but the toolbar/buttons could always be configured away. The real problem is the context menu. Has it been simplified or made configurable?
      - Liquid_Fire 1y ago
        Out of interest, what do you use the context menu for in a terminal emulator so often that it bothers you? I can't even remember the last time I opened it.
        mixmastamyk 1y ago
        I hide all UI and use only the context menu, 90% of the time to open a new tab, 5% of the time to split a tab, and 4% of the time to bring up the config dialog. 1% to open a new window, though I'm often doing Ctrl+Alt+T for that recently. This is what I've done since SGI 4DWM Terminal (and ancient NT Command Prompt), and almost all other terminal emulators can be configured to do so. Konsole stands alone (to my knowledge) in its insistence on cruft all over the interface. The terminal widget itself seems fine. To be clear, I don't mind obscure options, but they should live in the control panel. See my cousin comment for more details.
        distances 1y ago
        You can eliminate that 90% by Ctrl+Shift+T.
        mixmastamyk 1y ago
        Doesn't help when coming from a browser. Ctrl+Alt+T works without the Terminal in focus however. Ctrl+Shift+T needs me to click in the terminal first then go back to the keyboard. Waste of time.
        distances 1y ago
  - pxc 1y ago
    > So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content Unlabeled buttons are a scourge, accursed and meaningless hieroglyphs
    - brewdad 1y ago
      I do love that the floppy lives on in the Save icon.
    - eviks 1y ago
      Unless you remember the meaning , of course, then suddenly the curse is lifted and you just don't waste space
      - pxc 1y ago
        GUIs (and especially buttons) are most useful for things I do infrequently. Frequent tasks are better done by keyboard shortcuts or command line utilities anyway. The only places where I routinely click on label-less icons are in the menu bar/system tray and my browser's always-visible toolbar. I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me. And I also actively arrange all the items in both cases, choosing not just the arrangement but which will show at all. That means I know them basically as soon as I throw them down. I wonder if it would be crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them.
        eviks 1y ago
        > I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me. See how easy it is to justify "the scourge"? Also, this is exactly the same situation here - using a permanent toolbar on your main screen (not a submenu or some secondary settings screen where extra labels don't cost anything) > crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them. Great idea, had the same, though an even better is to use frecency as a proxy for memory everywhere (and also apply it to various tips and keybinds etc) - if you've clicked the button 10 times, the label disappears, but if you haven't clicked in a year, it reappears (all configurable per button of course, OS-wide, there are some frequently use symbols like clipboard that you'll never forget due to use in other apps)
  - heavyset_go 1y ago
    That screenshot has all of the Konsole features enabled. You'd use one at a time if you use any at all. > So many KDE apps have this same problem. Right click any KDE app toolbar -> Text position -> Icons only I also believe it's a setting in the System Settings.
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on. I think a lot of people knock it just from looking at some screenshots of the default options. Not knowing everything is configurable. Think the taskbar (panel) is too thick? Just change it. Don't want that toolbar? No worries just turn it off. It's so good.
      - account42 1y ago
        > That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on. That is unfortunately less and less the case. Still better than most alternatives in that regard though.
      - heavyset_go 1y ago
        I was in that boat for years. It took forcing myself to switch due to GNOME breaking basic features before I realized just how great and customizable KDE is. You can easily implement Windows or macOS UI layouts using it and it isn't terrible. I actually prefer KDE to either desktop.
      - mixmastamyk 1y ago
        The context menu is not configureable.
  - mzajc 1y ago
    > Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button? It's not, which is why the context menu gives you an "Icons Only" option, along with "Text Only", "Text Alongside Icons" (default), and "Text Under Icons". You can also adjust the icon size, or remove the toolbar entirely.
  - phatskat 1y ago
    > This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ Oof. It looks like it’s trying to iTerm2 but, as the kids say, it’s not him. I generally don’t use any “default” terminal regardless of OS or DE if I don’t have to. I’m full time on Ghostty these days and I adore it
  - shmerl 1y ago
    It's very easy to customize and remove all the visual noise though.
- ezst 1y ago
  Who needs konsole when you can have yakuake?
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    I use the terminal too much for that. I use yakuake for a quick text based ai interface though. That way I can quickly go like "what's the difference between this and that in Spanish?" when I'm writing something.
    - ezst 1y ago
      I use yakuake for everything, I don't know what I would be missing out from a dedicated term: yakuake has tabs, and splits/tiling, so the entirety of my terminal needs are covered in one convenient and easily accessible place :-)
      - wkat4242 1y ago
        I'd miss having full screen. I have console full screen on one of my virtual desktops (and I can switch to any desktop with a single key press so in that sense it's the same as yakuake in terms of accessibility). Good point though!
        ezst 1y ago
        Yeah, for the record my yakuake is maximized both horizontally and vertically so it looks and feels like a full-screen term :-)
  - account42 1y ago
    Everyone who uses the terminal for more than one-off commands?
    - guappa 1y ago
      Is your yakuake process running in a very time limited cgroup?
- wojciii 1y ago
  I use terminator as my terminal .. it allows to split windows which is somewhat implemented in console, but it doesn't work very well..
  - WD-42 1y ago
    And this is why I find KDE annoying. Having to use GTK/GNOME apps for something as simple as a terminal.
    - bmicraft 1y ago
      There are a boatload of non-GTK or GNOME affiliated terminal emulators. I can recommend alacritty for instance.
    - soraminazuki 1y ago
      The default GNOME terminal doesn't do split windows, so it doesn't offer any advantage over KDE in that regard. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/console/-/issues/103 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/console/-/issues/103
    - antalis 1y ago
      Konsole has that feature too. https://itsfoss.com/konsole-terminal-tweaks/#4-split-the-terminal-window https://itsfoss.com/konsole-terminal-tweaks/#4-split-the-ter...
      - wojciii 1y ago
        Yes, but I don't like how this is implemented.
- neobrain 1y ago
  > the context menu with hundreds of options can’t be simplified to my knowledge What context menu is this about? When I right click into the terminal area, my context menu has a grand total of... 11 items.
  - mixmastamyk 1y ago
    Hide the menu/toolbar. And 11 is too many as it is, see my comment elsewhere. Someone posted a screenshot of a new install with 16, but it still doesn't have the main menu disabled. Which adds it to the context menu.
- rgun 1y ago
  I have probably started using konsole because it was the default, but have since liked it a lot. I use tmux whenever I want to split windows, synchronize keystrokes and things like that but for all else, konsole works perfectly well. I have set it up in a way that I don't see any clutter. You can hide whatever you don't want to see on the UI. All I see is the terminal and the tabs. The killer feature is the 'monitor for silence' and 'monitor for activity'. Comes quite handy for long running background tasks that you want to monitor.
f33d5173 1y ago
Is that why they don't have alt selection?
foresto 1y ago
I suspect overlooked and stalled pull requests are common in open-source. A small one of mine (to a popular project that is not KDE or GNOME) recently took half a year, and most of that time was spent waiting for reviewers and bikeshedding the docs. My condolences on the frustration. For what it's worth, I'm not part of KDE's inner circle, yet the several PRs that I have submitted to them since I started using it (~2 years ago) have all been accepted. One was difficult to shepherd through the gauntlet of opinions, but was finally merged. So the process is not entirely impenetrable.

mixmastamyk 1y ago

Konsole is my least favorite terminal because of all the klutter. Have to remove several buttons, and the context menu with hundreds of options can’t be simplified to my knowledge.

WD-42 1y ago
This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ What's up with the massive amount of chrome used for nothing except new tab/copy/paste buttons? Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button? Compare it to gnome console, or any other terminal really, and you will get far more terminal output for the size of the window, as it should be. And it's not just Konsole. So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content, for things you will never use or have well established keyboard shortcuts already.
- sho_hn 1y ago
  In Konsole's defense, this is the actual default appearance of a Konsole window when you launch it for the first time in the current stable release: https://mero.ng/i/lWMWazUP.png https://mero.ng/i/lWMWazUP.png The screenshot on the website has all sorts of optional bits enabled, and I would readily agree is not a good showcase. The reason all those optional bits exist is because you'd be surprised who ends up using a terminal emulator in a general purpose desktop GUI used in many large IT deployments. E.g. a lot of folks who are used to PuTTy on Windows and want a little GUI for SSH connections, and for them this is the game changer. The "try to show all the goods in your screenshot" mindset is really not a good one though, agree :)
  - mixmastamyk 1y ago
    That's better, but the toolbar/buttons could always be configured away. The real problem is the context menu. Has it been simplified or made configurable?
    - Liquid_Fire 1y ago
      Out of interest, what do you use the context menu for in a terminal emulator so often that it bothers you? I can't even remember the last time I opened it.
      - mixmastamyk 1y ago
        I hide all UI and use only the context menu, 90% of the time to open a new tab, 5% of the time to split a tab, and 4% of the time to bring up the config dialog. 1% to open a new window, though I'm often doing Ctrl+Alt+T for that recently. This is what I've done since SGI 4DWM Terminal (and ancient NT Command Prompt), and almost all other terminal emulators can be configured to do so. Konsole stands alone (to my knowledge) in its insistence on cruft all over the interface. The terminal widget itself seems fine. To be clear, I don't mind obscure options, but they should live in the control panel. See my cousin comment for more details.
        distances 1y ago
        You can eliminate that 90% by Ctrl+Shift+T.
        mixmastamyk 1y ago
        Doesn't help when coming from a browser. Ctrl+Alt+T works without the Terminal in focus however. Ctrl+Shift+T needs me to click in the terminal first then go back to the keyboard. Waste of time.
        distances 1y ago
- pxc 1y ago
  > So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content Unlabeled buttons are a scourge, accursed and meaningless hieroglyphs
  - brewdad 1y ago
    I do love that the floppy lives on in the Save icon.
  - eviks 1y ago
    Unless you remember the meaning , of course, then suddenly the curse is lifted and you just don't waste space
    - pxc 1y ago
      GUIs (and especially buttons) are most useful for things I do infrequently. Frequent tasks are better done by keyboard shortcuts or command line utilities anyway. The only places where I routinely click on label-less icons are in the menu bar/system tray and my browser's always-visible toolbar. I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me. And I also actively arrange all the items in both cases, choosing not just the arrangement but which will show at all. That means I know them basically as soon as I throw them down. I wonder if it would be crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them.
      - eviks 1y ago
        > I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me. See how easy it is to justify "the scourge"? Also, this is exactly the same situation here - using a permanent toolbar on your main screen (not a submenu or some secondary settings screen where extra labels don't cost anything) > crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them. Great idea, had the same, though an even better is to use frecency as a proxy for memory everywhere (and also apply it to various tips and keybinds etc) - if you've clicked the button 10 times, the label disappears, but if you haven't clicked in a year, it reappears (all configurable per button of course, OS-wide, there are some frequently use symbols like clipboard that you'll never forget due to use in other apps)
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  That screenshot has all of the Konsole features enabled. You'd use one at a time if you use any at all. > So many KDE apps have this same problem. Right click any KDE app toolbar -> Text position -> Icons only I also believe it's a setting in the System Settings.
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on. I think a lot of people knock it just from looking at some screenshots of the default options. Not knowing everything is configurable. Think the taskbar (panel) is too thick? Just change it. Don't want that toolbar? No worries just turn it off. It's so good.
    - account42 1y ago
      > That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on. That is unfortunately less and less the case. Still better than most alternatives in that regard though.
    - heavyset_go 1y ago
      I was in that boat for years. It took forcing myself to switch due to GNOME breaking basic features before I realized just how great and customizable KDE is. You can easily implement Windows or macOS UI layouts using it and it isn't terrible. I actually prefer KDE to either desktop.
    - mixmastamyk 1y ago
      The context menu is not configureable.
- mzajc 1y ago
  > Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button? It's not, which is why the context menu gives you an "Icons Only" option, along with "Text Only", "Text Alongside Icons" (default), and "Text Under Icons". You can also adjust the icon size, or remove the toolbar entirely.
- phatskat 1y ago
  > This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ Oof. It looks like it’s trying to iTerm2 but, as the kids say, it’s not him. I generally don’t use any “default” terminal regardless of OS or DE if I don’t have to. I’m full time on Ghostty these days and I adore it
- shmerl 1y ago
  It's very easy to customize and remove all the visual noise though.
ezst 1y ago
Who needs konsole when you can have yakuake?
- wkat4242 1y ago
  I use the terminal too much for that. I use yakuake for a quick text based ai interface though. That way I can quickly go like "what's the difference between this and that in Spanish?" when I'm writing something.
  - ezst 1y ago
    I use yakuake for everything, I don't know what I would be missing out from a dedicated term: yakuake has tabs, and splits/tiling, so the entirety of my terminal needs are covered in one convenient and easily accessible place :-)
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      I'd miss having full screen. I have console full screen on one of my virtual desktops (and I can switch to any desktop with a single key press so in that sense it's the same as yakuake in terms of accessibility). Good point though!
      - ezst 1y ago
        Yeah, for the record my yakuake is maximized both horizontally and vertically so it looks and feels like a full-screen term :-)
- account42 1y ago
  Everyone who uses the terminal for more than one-off commands?
  - guappa 1y ago
    Is your yakuake process running in a very time limited cgroup?
wojciii 1y ago
I use terminator as my terminal .. it allows to split windows which is somewhat implemented in console, but it doesn't work very well..
- WD-42 1y ago
  And this is why I find KDE annoying. Having to use GTK/GNOME apps for something as simple as a terminal.
  - bmicraft 1y ago
    There are a boatload of non-GTK or GNOME affiliated terminal emulators. I can recommend alacritty for instance.
  - soraminazuki 1y ago
    The default GNOME terminal doesn't do split windows, so it doesn't offer any advantage over KDE in that regard. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/console/-/issues/103 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/console/-/issues/103
  - antalis 1y ago
    Konsole has that feature too. https://itsfoss.com/konsole-terminal-tweaks/#4-split-the-terminal-window https://itsfoss.com/konsole-terminal-tweaks/#4-split-the-ter...
    - wojciii 1y ago
      Yes, but I don't like how this is implemented.
neobrain 1y ago
> the context menu with hundreds of options can’t be simplified to my knowledge What context menu is this about? When I right click into the terminal area, my context menu has a grand total of... 11 items.
- mixmastamyk 1y ago
  Hide the menu/toolbar. And 11 is too many as it is, see my comment elsewhere. Someone posted a screenshot of a new install with 16, but it still doesn't have the main menu disabled. Which adds it to the context menu.
rgun 1y ago
I have probably started using konsole because it was the default, but have since liked it a lot. I use tmux whenever I want to split windows, synchronize keystrokes and things like that but for all else, konsole works perfectly well. I have set it up in a way that I don't see any clutter. You can hide whatever you don't want to see on the UI. All I see is the terminal and the tabs. The killer feature is the 'monitor for silence' and 'monitor for activity'. Comes quite handy for long running background tasks that you want to monitor.

f33d5173 1y ago

Is that why they don't have alt selection?

foresto 1y ago

I suspect overlooked and stalled pull requests are common in open-source. A small one of mine (to a popular project that is not KDE or GNOME) recently took half a year, and most of that time was spent waiting for reviewers and bikeshedding the docs. My condolences on the frustration. For what it's worth, I'm not part of KDE's inner circle, yet the several PRs that I have submitted to them since I started using it (~2 years ago) have all been accepted. One was difficult to shepherd through the gauntlet of opinions, but was finally merged. So the process is not entirely impenetrable.