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> If the people like Atwood who argue that some people just can't learn programming are to be taken seriously, then by the same argument and same types of evide

by Jach 14y ago

> If the people like Atwood who argue that some people just can't learn programming are to be taken seriously, then by the same argument and same types of evidence, there are some people who can't learn science, or math, or reading, or how to speak or write. The fact that there exists some Person who cannot learn X, an element of learn-able things, does not imply that for all X_i in the set of learn-able things there exists some Person who cannot learn X_i. I agree it's easy to give up on people who just need to see from another perspective to "get it". But I'll donate $20 to a charity of your choice if you can find me someone with a measured IQ of <= 80 who's also a decent programmer. ($10 for <= 90.)

ebiester 14y ago
Let's operationalize programming, of course. I will take your bet that I can teach someone at IQ 85 how to do hello world, and I can probably bring them through for loops and basic flow. I don't know about them being able to solve real problems, though.
- Jach 14y ago
  Ah, that's a different bet than what I had in mind. I don't want to take that one. Though I'm curious to know what test you're going to apply to make sure they know what you intend to teach. If it's just a prompt "write hello world", I bet someone could teach a chimpanzee (or, if he was still alive, Alex the parrot) to do that on prompting and it doesn't seem very remarkable. (Now solving FizzBuzz when prompted, without them having ever seen the complete solution before, would be remarkable.) My bet is finding a "decent programmer" with such an IQ, whether you teach someone with such an IQ to be a decent programmer or find one at some company doesn't matter, so long as they're decent. I'll charitably define a "decent programmer" as one who in principle could get hired (or has been hired) at any company doing programming and related tasks and not get (or have been) fired for incompetence at programming. So solving "real problems" is kind of a requirement, which I'll cop-out and define them as "problems the manager asks to be solved". They shouldn't be complicated but the most mediocre of currently employed junior or intern programmers across the world should be able to accomplish them. Also charitably, gluing code blocks written by other people shall count as programming and solving a real problem. I think there's someone out there with an IQ of 97 doing such a job, but 85? I really need to see it to believe it...

by Jach 14y ago

ebiester 14y ago

Let's operationalize programming, of course. I will take your bet that I can teach someone at IQ 85 how to do hello world, and I can probably bring them through for loops and basic flow. I don't know about them being able to solve real problems, though.

Jach 14y ago
Ah, that's a different bet than what I had in mind. I don't want to take that one. Though I'm curious to know what test you're going to apply to make sure they know what you intend to teach. If it's just a prompt "write hello world", I bet someone could teach a chimpanzee (or, if he was still alive, Alex the parrot) to do that on prompting and it doesn't seem very remarkable. (Now solving FizzBuzz when prompted, without them having ever seen the complete solution before, would be remarkable.) My bet is finding a "decent programmer" with such an IQ, whether you teach someone with such an IQ to be a decent programmer or find one at some company doesn't matter, so long as they're decent. I'll charitably define a "decent programmer" as one who in principle could get hired (or has been hired) at any company doing programming and related tasks and not get (or have been) fired for incompetence at programming. So solving "real problems" is kind of a requirement, which I'll cop-out and define them as "problems the manager asks to be solved". They shouldn't be complicated but the most mediocre of currently employed junior or intern programmers across the world should be able to accomplish them. Also charitably, gluing code blocks written by other people shall count as programming and solving a real problem. I think there's someone out there with an IQ of 97 doing such a job, but 85? I really need to see it to believe it...