6 ms·

Mel Brooks had the right of it. Fascism and Authoritarianism is defeated by satire and mockery. The ideology is too outrageous to survive any such scrutiny. Wh

Mel Brooks had the right of it. Fascism and Authoritarianism is defeated by satire and mockery. The ideology is too outrageous to survive any such scrutiny. Why else would the administration be so afraid of a few jokes?

atoav 1y ago
I have read that the Joe Rogan school of comedy, that has grown popular in the past decade, did so on the grounds on fighting liberal "cancel culture". Back then they were rebelling against what was painted as a predominant culture, now that they have overachieved, one wonders if they would also fight cancle culture when it is coming from thr political right. I am not very optimistic about that. But maybe we get new generations of comedians that will.
- karmakurtisaani 1y ago
  Their mediocre humor relies on punching down and bashing "cancel culture". That's their only trick and what their audience wants to hear. Without it their "comedy" has no edge, and picking on trans people is a lot less funny when the president is already doing it on national news.
- LeafItAlone 1y ago
  >Joe Rogan school of comedy Joe Rogan, the Fear Factor host turned Right Wing podcaster? Is he know for comedy? I thought his brief failed stint of stand up comedy is why he switched to podcasting.
  - tim333 1y ago
    I've watched Rogan a bit and don't recall him telling jokes. He generally seems quite a neutral interviewer though his guests lean right wing.
    - tstrimple 1y ago
      Yeah, no. Not neutral at all. https://www.newsweek.com/joe-rogan-mocked-botching-joe-biden-takedown-1855098 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-rogan-mocked-botching-joe-biden... One of many examples. Joe is outraged because he thinks Joe Biden talked about airports during the revolutionary war. He goes on to state that someone who makes such comments shouldn't have a job. When it's revealed that it's a Trump statement he pivots to "oh he just made a mistake when speaking". It's so blatantly obvious and happens constantly.
      - tim333 1y ago
        Well, fairly neutral is in the eye of the beholder. Saying Biden seemed a bit gaga was being said by most democrats at the time, and Rogan seemed to acknowledge his error when it turned out Trump talked about airports rather than Biden. "so he fucked up" was the wording. I mean he's not like Tucker say.
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        But he considered it disqualifying out of Biden's mouth… > December 22, 2023: "Pull him," Rogan said. "If you had any other job, and you were talking like that, they would go, 'Hey, you're done.'" but mysteriously not when it turns out to be Trump: > November 5, 2024: Popular podcast host Joe Rogan officially endorsed Donald Trump on the eve of the election, a move Trump’s team swiftly touted as a major win in the final hours of their campaign. (https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/04/politics/joe-rogan-trump-endorsement https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/04/politics/joe-rogan-trump-endo...)
        phatskat 1y ago
        Makes sense - Rogan is friends with Alex Jones, who is pretty much as far up Trump’s rump as Jones himself once said Trump was “up ISIS’s dirty **hole” - we almost had a world where jones was so mad at trump that he was going to bail, but I’m pretty sure Roger Stone and their other trump-linked associate (name escapes me, “psyops” guy) reigned him in - maybe with some push from the kremlin too. I guess my point is: these people are all interconnected and it’s almost like when you hear about how actors all know each other and hang out, or congresspeople play golf together, but for fascism.
  - atoav 1y ago
    Joe Rogan was a stand up comedian in the 80s/90s, appeared on the MTV comedy show Half-Hour Comedy Hour and was performing at The Comedy Store in Hollywood. Not that I find him funny, but that in my book at least would make him someone with a professional comedy background if he spent nearly 3 decades there.. But I was refering to was the specific idea of what has been labeled the "Rogansphere" by his critics. This refers to a loose media/comedy ecosystem orbiting Joe Rogan, his podcast, Austin (comedy) clubs, and a web of frequent guests and adjacent podcasters/comedians who cross-promote each other on YouTube and podcasts. This network rose to prominence in a push to normalize "anti-woke" and right-leaning narratives under a free-speech banner. This was a pretty popular niche to serve as the term "cancel culture" gained more traction. At the time even many otherwise (american-)left-leaning people would express frustration with liberal attempts to police language etc. This popular niche was especially present in comedy with a discourse about what and who you could joke about and since Joe Rogan played a big role into giving that topic traction I cynically called it "Joe Rogan school of comedy". I am no alone in thinking that way, comedian Marc Maron puts it better than I could in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_N4W05eyto&t=307s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_N4W05eyto&t=307s
  - seadan83 1y ago
    Per "https://www.joerogan.com/ https://www.joerogan.com/" - Joe Rogan is "A standup comedian for over 30 years, Rogan’s seventh hour long comedy special Joe Rogan: Burn the Boats premiered live on Netflix on August 3, 2024. Rogan’s previous comedy specials include..." Joe Rogan owns a comedy club in Austin as well. [1] Joe Rogan is a pretty busy guy.. I would imagine his professional network amongst comedians was pretty large before he blew up as a podcaster. This is not only to say that Joe Rogan has multiple comedies, but is also very likely to be very influential amongst as well. [1] https://www.comedyinyoureye.com/post/inside-the-comedy-club-joe-rogan-s-comedy-mothership-and-its-impact-on-austin-s-nightlife https://www.comedyinyoureye.com/post/inside-the-comedy-club-...
- kimbernator 1y ago
  It's my totally uneducated perception that you need to start out as explicitly unaffiliated in order to execute on a shift like that (e.g. South Park). If you start fighting in one direction, I imagine it's near impossible to start punching backwards (once your audience is established) without alienating a substantial portion of your base.
- thrance 1y ago
  They were fighting "cancel culture" and complaining about not being able to say anything anymore on Netflix specials and sponsored podcasts. These guys are all fucking grifters with fried brains and no values beyond that of their bank accounts.
Garlef 1y ago
There was loads of pre-WW2 mockery of Hitler. It did not matter a lot in the end. So: As much as I admire Mel Brooks, this is just wishful thinking.
- uncircle 1y ago
  Yeah, how did satire fare when Hitler was in power? Let's perhaps say that if satire doesn't directly prevent authoritarianism, it works as a very effective canary in the mine.
  - perihelions 1y ago
    The last criticism of Nazism was a very milquetoast 1934 speech by a Nazi, Franz von Papen, who though supporting Adolf Hitler detracted in some (seemingly) lesser ways—decrying the fanaticism of Hitler's personality cult. He was severely punished for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_speech ("...said to be the last speech made publicly, and on a high level, in Germany against National Socialism...") An ironic tombstone for freedom of speech: "They will bear them and follow the Führer with unwavering loyalty, if they are allowed to have their part in the planning and in the work, if every word of criticism is not taken for ill will, and if despairing patriots are not branded as enemies of the state."
    - tim333 1y ago
      The last high level public criticism within Germany. Nazis of course still got criticism and satire elsewhere. Hitler Has Only Got One Ball and the like leading up to their defeat and Hitler shooting himself in a bunker.
  - sharken 1y ago
    Tove Jansson, the creator of the Moomins got away with it in 1944. https://www.openculture.com/2020/11/before-creating-the-moomins-tove-jansson-drew-satirical-art-mocking-hitler-stalin.html https://www.openculture.com/2020/11/before-creating-the-moom...
AndrewOMartin 1y ago
> Peter Cook, [...] talked about the satirical Berlin cabarets of the ’30s, which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the Second World War. Tom Lehrer - https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7275489-i-don-t-think-this-kind-of-thing-satire-has-an https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7275489-i-don-t-think-this-...
spl757 1y ago
This is exactly what Gavin Newsom is doing. It holds a mirror up and forces the right to address the ridiculousness of how trump communicates.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  But they generally either do not get it or pretend not to get it. The tactic only works on people who have shame. Politicians used to resign for consensual sex.
  - thrance 1y ago
    Carter's peanut farm feels like it comes from a fantasy novel.
  - computerthings 1y ago
    [dead]
- yongjik 1y ago
  TBF I don't think Trump supporters get the ridiculousness. If they could get it so easily from another politician repeating it, they wouldn't be supporting Trump in the first place. What Gavin Newsom is doing is, I think, a bit more subtle. He's signaling to Democratic supporters "Here's a guy willing to mock and ridicule Trump," because the established Democrats were too afraid to even do that - which explains why in this age of Trump, Democrats' poll numbers are still in the gutter.
NoGravitas 1y ago
In the case of Fascism 1.0, it took satire, mockery, and thousands of Soviet tanks.
- suzdude 1y ago
  Soviet tanks, American bombs, British guns, French lives....
  - kimbernator 1y ago
    Surprised the French get the "lives" in this, given that the soviet union lost about 40 people for every french person while having a population only about 4.5x larger.
    - morkalork 1y ago
      The quote is a little messed up because many of those 'soviet tanks' were Lend-Lease tanks produced by allies. Iirc it goes "WW2 was won with British intelligence, American steel, and Russian blood"
      - seadan83 1y ago
        Indeed, USSR casualties (including civilians) were off the charts. USSR, then China, then Germany and then Indonesia. [0] 'Russian blood' part is something of an understatement. The lend lease part is not correct. Lend lease went mostly to UK (Google AI says about 60% of lend lease went to UK & the rest of lend lease was split between USSR & China. Take that with a grain of salt) Not to be taken with a grant of salt, according to wikipedia: "Most tank units were Soviet-built models but about 7,000 Lend-Lease tanks (plus more than 5,000 British tanks) were used by the Red Army, eight percent of war-time production. " [1] Also per wikipedia, USSR produced about 30k light tanks, 65k medium tanks (eg: t-34), and 13k heavy tanks. [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#/media/File:World_War_II_Casualties.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#/media... From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_producti...
ProllyInfamous 1y ago
You have much more eloquently conveyed what I was (admittedly: not well) expressing earlier [0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45282482#45283234 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45282482#45283234 Thank you for helping me think about / express this better.
mkfs 1y ago
[flagged]
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> Fascism and Authoritarianism is defeated by satire and mockery. Napoleon shut down all the newspapers that criticized him. He was only undone by Waterloo (actually mostly by his own folly of trying to invade Russia ...) I don't think there's any record of Authoritarianism being defeated by satire, if for no other reason than the authoritarians shut the satire down. Looks like it's time for an American _Solidarność_

atoav 1y ago

I have read that the Joe Rogan school of comedy, that has grown popular in the past decade, did so on the grounds on fighting liberal "cancel culture". Back then they were rebelling against what was painted as a predominant culture, now that they have overachieved, one wonders if they would also fight cancle culture when it is coming from thr political right. I am not very optimistic about that. But maybe we get new generations of comedians that will.

karmakurtisaani 1y ago
Their mediocre humor relies on punching down and bashing "cancel culture". That's their only trick and what their audience wants to hear. Without it their "comedy" has no edge, and picking on trans people is a lot less funny when the president is already doing it on national news.
LeafItAlone 1y ago
>Joe Rogan school of comedy Joe Rogan, the Fear Factor host turned Right Wing podcaster? Is he know for comedy? I thought his brief failed stint of stand up comedy is why he switched to podcasting.
- tim333 1y ago
  I've watched Rogan a bit and don't recall him telling jokes. He generally seems quite a neutral interviewer though his guests lean right wing.
  - tstrimple 1y ago
    Yeah, no. Not neutral at all. https://www.newsweek.com/joe-rogan-mocked-botching-joe-biden-takedown-1855098 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-rogan-mocked-botching-joe-biden... One of many examples. Joe is outraged because he thinks Joe Biden talked about airports during the revolutionary war. He goes on to state that someone who makes such comments shouldn't have a job. When it's revealed that it's a Trump statement he pivots to "oh he just made a mistake when speaking". It's so blatantly obvious and happens constantly.
    - tim333 1y ago
      Well, fairly neutral is in the eye of the beholder. Saying Biden seemed a bit gaga was being said by most democrats at the time, and Rogan seemed to acknowledge his error when it turned out Trump talked about airports rather than Biden. "so he fucked up" was the wording. I mean he's not like Tucker say.
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        But he considered it disqualifying out of Biden's mouth… > December 22, 2023: "Pull him," Rogan said. "If you had any other job, and you were talking like that, they would go, 'Hey, you're done.'" but mysteriously not when it turns out to be Trump: > November 5, 2024: Popular podcast host Joe Rogan officially endorsed Donald Trump on the eve of the election, a move Trump’s team swiftly touted as a major win in the final hours of their campaign. (https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/04/politics/joe-rogan-trump-endorsement https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/04/politics/joe-rogan-trump-endo...)
        phatskat 1y ago
        Makes sense - Rogan is friends with Alex Jones, who is pretty much as far up Trump’s rump as Jones himself once said Trump was “up ISIS’s dirty **hole” - we almost had a world where jones was so mad at trump that he was going to bail, but I’m pretty sure Roger Stone and their other trump-linked associate (name escapes me, “psyops” guy) reigned him in - maybe with some push from the kremlin too. I guess my point is: these people are all interconnected and it’s almost like when you hear about how actors all know each other and hang out, or congresspeople play golf together, but for fascism.
- atoav 1y ago
  Joe Rogan was a stand up comedian in the 80s/90s, appeared on the MTV comedy show Half-Hour Comedy Hour and was performing at The Comedy Store in Hollywood. Not that I find him funny, but that in my book at least would make him someone with a professional comedy background if he spent nearly 3 decades there.. But I was refering to was the specific idea of what has been labeled the "Rogansphere" by his critics. This refers to a loose media/comedy ecosystem orbiting Joe Rogan, his podcast, Austin (comedy) clubs, and a web of frequent guests and adjacent podcasters/comedians who cross-promote each other on YouTube and podcasts. This network rose to prominence in a push to normalize "anti-woke" and right-leaning narratives under a free-speech banner. This was a pretty popular niche to serve as the term "cancel culture" gained more traction. At the time even many otherwise (american-)left-leaning people would express frustration with liberal attempts to police language etc. This popular niche was especially present in comedy with a discourse about what and who you could joke about and since Joe Rogan played a big role into giving that topic traction I cynically called it "Joe Rogan school of comedy". I am no alone in thinking that way, comedian Marc Maron puts it better than I could in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_N4W05eyto&t=307s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_N4W05eyto&t=307s
- seadan83 1y ago
  Per "https://www.joerogan.com/ https://www.joerogan.com/" - Joe Rogan is "A standup comedian for over 30 years, Rogan’s seventh hour long comedy special Joe Rogan: Burn the Boats premiered live on Netflix on August 3, 2024. Rogan’s previous comedy specials include..." Joe Rogan owns a comedy club in Austin as well. [1] Joe Rogan is a pretty busy guy.. I would imagine his professional network amongst comedians was pretty large before he blew up as a podcaster. This is not only to say that Joe Rogan has multiple comedies, but is also very likely to be very influential amongst as well. [1] https://www.comedyinyoureye.com/post/inside-the-comedy-club-joe-rogan-s-comedy-mothership-and-its-impact-on-austin-s-nightlife https://www.comedyinyoureye.com/post/inside-the-comedy-club-...
kimbernator 1y ago
It's my totally uneducated perception that you need to start out as explicitly unaffiliated in order to execute on a shift like that (e.g. South Park). If you start fighting in one direction, I imagine it's near impossible to start punching backwards (once your audience is established) without alienating a substantial portion of your base.
thrance 1y ago
They were fighting "cancel culture" and complaining about not being able to say anything anymore on Netflix specials and sponsored podcasts. These guys are all fucking grifters with fried brains and no values beyond that of their bank accounts.

Garlef 1y ago

There was loads of pre-WW2 mockery of Hitler. It did not matter a lot in the end. So: As much as I admire Mel Brooks, this is just wishful thinking.

uncircle 1y ago
Yeah, how did satire fare when Hitler was in power? Let's perhaps say that if satire doesn't directly prevent authoritarianism, it works as a very effective canary in the mine.
- perihelions 1y ago
  The last criticism of Nazism was a very milquetoast 1934 speech by a Nazi, Franz von Papen, who though supporting Adolf Hitler detracted in some (seemingly) lesser ways—decrying the fanaticism of Hitler's personality cult. He was severely punished for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_speech ("...said to be the last speech made publicly, and on a high level, in Germany against National Socialism...") An ironic tombstone for freedom of speech: "They will bear them and follow the Führer with unwavering loyalty, if they are allowed to have their part in the planning and in the work, if every word of criticism is not taken for ill will, and if despairing patriots are not branded as enemies of the state."
  - tim333 1y ago
    The last high level public criticism within Germany. Nazis of course still got criticism and satire elsewhere. Hitler Has Only Got One Ball and the like leading up to their defeat and Hitler shooting himself in a bunker.
- sharken 1y ago
  Tove Jansson, the creator of the Moomins got away with it in 1944. https://www.openculture.com/2020/11/before-creating-the-moomins-tove-jansson-drew-satirical-art-mocking-hitler-stalin.html https://www.openculture.com/2020/11/before-creating-the-moom...

AndrewOMartin 1y ago

> Peter Cook, [...] talked about the satirical Berlin cabarets of the ’30s, which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the Second World War. Tom Lehrer - https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7275489-i-don-t-think-this-kind-of-thing-satire-has-an https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7275489-i-don-t-think-this-...

spl757 1y ago

This is exactly what Gavin Newsom is doing. It holds a mirror up and forces the right to address the ridiculousness of how trump communicates.

ceejayoz 1y ago
But they generally either do not get it or pretend not to get it. The tactic only works on people who have shame. Politicians used to resign for consensual sex.
- thrance 1y ago
  Carter's peanut farm feels like it comes from a fantasy novel.
- computerthings 1y ago
  [dead]
yongjik 1y ago
TBF I don't think Trump supporters get the ridiculousness. If they could get it so easily from another politician repeating it, they wouldn't be supporting Trump in the first place. What Gavin Newsom is doing is, I think, a bit more subtle. He's signaling to Democratic supporters "Here's a guy willing to mock and ridicule Trump," because the established Democrats were too afraid to even do that - which explains why in this age of Trump, Democrats' poll numbers are still in the gutter.

NoGravitas 1y ago

In the case of Fascism 1.0, it took satire, mockery, and thousands of Soviet tanks.

suzdude 1y ago
Soviet tanks, American bombs, British guns, French lives....
- kimbernator 1y ago
  Surprised the French get the "lives" in this, given that the soviet union lost about 40 people for every french person while having a population only about 4.5x larger.
  - morkalork 1y ago
    The quote is a little messed up because many of those 'soviet tanks' were Lend-Lease tanks produced by allies. Iirc it goes "WW2 was won with British intelligence, American steel, and Russian blood"
    - seadan83 1y ago
      Indeed, USSR casualties (including civilians) were off the charts. USSR, then China, then Germany and then Indonesia. [0] 'Russian blood' part is something of an understatement. The lend lease part is not correct. Lend lease went mostly to UK (Google AI says about 60% of lend lease went to UK & the rest of lend lease was split between USSR & China. Take that with a grain of salt) Not to be taken with a grant of salt, according to wikipedia: "Most tank units were Soviet-built models but about 7,000 Lend-Lease tanks (plus more than 5,000 British tanks) were used by the Red Army, eight percent of war-time production. " [1] Also per wikipedia, USSR produced about 30k light tanks, 65k medium tanks (eg: t-34), and 13k heavy tanks. [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#/media/File:World_War_II_Casualties.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#/media... From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_producti...

ProllyInfamous 1y ago

You have much more eloquently conveyed what I was (admittedly: not well) expressing earlier [0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45282482#45283234 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45282482#45283234 Thank you for helping me think about / express this better.

mkfs 1y ago

[flagged]

insane_dreamer 1y ago

> Fascism and Authoritarianism is defeated by satire and mockery. Napoleon shut down all the newspapers that criticized him. He was only undone by Waterloo (actually mostly by his own folly of trying to invade Russia ...) I don't think there's any record of Authoritarianism being defeated by satire, if for no other reason than the authoritarians shut the satire down. Looks like it's time for an American _Solidarność_