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Yeah, every time I read people saying stuff like the OP, I’m like, “Yeah, sure if you’re an atheist.” The religious world is chugging along just fine. All of m

Yeah, every time I read people saying stuff like the OP, I’m like, “Yeah, sure if you’re an atheist.” The religious world is chugging along just fine. All of my religious friends have two, three kids, perfectly fine or above average incomes. It’s just not a priority for non-religious people, and there was never a loss of third spaces. Church hopping to date is a thing. People share values. Congregations celebrate new babies and chip in. Community exists. It’s a comparatively bad experience for those without that support. The secular world has none of this except maybe immediate family, and even then I don’t see support from non-religious parents to their non-religious children. So of course these people think these things. They’re basically thrown into the world with no social net.

xyzelement 1y ago
Really sad - it's a sort of tangible vision of what it means to have forsaken Gd and be forsaken by him.
- andrewmcwatters 1y ago
  Yeah, I think that’s a fair argument. It’s easily been the most clear indicator of social connective health I’ve seen over the course of my life regardless of faith background.
  - whatajoke69420 1y ago
    Nah, I think that's a really inane argument. Religious fervor (loosely defined as "Religion is a good thing") is the most clear indicator I've seen of social decay over the course of my life, regardless of which particular faith it is.
  - dh2022 1y ago
    I think you need to go out more often:). But seriously: this type of social connection works for some people and does not work for others. At church you are not allowed to question. When people pray you are supposed to bow your head. You are supposed to be quiet. I went to a few church services when a few of my friends invited me. I stuck out like a sore thumb. At the door on my way out the church greeters wished me well-while avoiding any eye contact. To each his own, I guess.
    - xyzelement 1y ago
      I would compare the experience you had in church to dropping in on an advanced math class or a powerlifting gym. When it's your first time, of course you don't know what to do and what it means - but that's a reflection of your being a novice rather than a comment on the thing itself or your ability to benefit from it. I can try to make an example. The reason people bow their heads in prayer is to acknowledge our finite mortality and limitation, in the face of the eternal. It puts us in our place, and creates the correct mindset for the prayer. For someone who prays, the bowing of the head isn't just "what you're supposed to do" but an indication of something much more significant and impactful on one's life. In fact, the idea represented by bowing down in prayer, and the topic of this thread (relationship between religiocity and stance on grief) can be connected.
      - dh2022 1y ago
        Bowing your head in church and keeping your mouth shut when the pastor says something silly is very different than behavior in an advanced math class (I do not know about powerlifting gym). In the advanced math classes I attended discussion and clarification was encouraged. In my stochastic calculus class the professor once made a mistake - which the brightest student caught. The professor thought about it for a few seconds, said this is a mistake indeed and he does not know how to fix at that time; then kept going. At the next class the professor came up with the solution to the mistake. Imagine standing up in the middle of the church and saying something about evolution. Very different behavior / attitude. Like I said, to each his own.
        xyzelement 1y ago
        I can tell you're not familiar with religious approaches so I can share my own experiences. I come at this from the Jewish perspective but I don't represent all branches of Judaism obviously and likewise I am sure there're Christians whose approach is further or closer to what I am describing. You're right that if you started shouting about evolution during prayer time, you'd be just an asshole - same as if I interrupted my biology lecturer to talk about the book of Genesis. There's a time and place. The most proximate example is when we read the Torah and the reader (whether that's the rabbi or someone else) makes a mistake, the community corrects him. There are certain things we take as tenets of faith, and it's not up to the reader - or any in-the-moment leader - to mis-state them. But closer to the spirit of what you're saying - attending a church service is not the sole religious experience. For example, there are lots of classes on interpreting scripture on ever-deeper levels, and finally the Talmud itself which is basically a narrative of logical and philosophical debate. Questioning and challenging "what this means" is an expected, welcome, and necessary element of engaging with those things. For Jews especially, exploring and questioning our religion is part of the experience. There are things we take as tenets that form our basic understanding and from those axioms it's all built via logic and subject to examination.
whatajoke69420 1y ago
[flagged]
- xyzelement 1y ago
  How many kids do you have? It's hilarious that atheists are so smart and "it's just Darwinism" and then they literally die on that hill. Maybe there's something to this "sky deity" thing if the only people in the next generations are kids of those who believe.
  - dh2022 1y ago
    It is hilarious :) "Idiocracy" is where the "only sky deity worshippers pro-create" movie ends. I happen to have religious friends. They invited me once to a Christmas dinner - about 5 families. My and my wife were the only ones who did not have at least 2 kids (we had no kids at that time). My wife was the only woman working, and I was the only one who was not working construction - one of the guys made this remark, not me. During the dinner the male host started playing on a keyboard. There was a chorus of women singing religious hymns around him (I am not making this up). One of the guys tried to convert me. All in good nature and polite and with no confrontation - these are all good people and we saw each other after that. But I skipped Christmas at their house the following year :)
    - xyzelement 1y ago
      Sounds like you have kids now and that's wonderful! "Wife being the only woman working" is an odd metric though. My wife went from being an ER physician when we met (fun times during COVID pregnant with our first) to doing telemedicine after we had our second, to doing that part time after we had our third. Similar to many women in our circle who are highly educated and professional, kids mean "working less" but this decision represents a desired and meaningful tradeoff. My wife loved her work but she (obviously?) loves being there for our children even more. At the end of the day, I suspect "singing around the piano" is a W not an L. It's funny that if you went to a "normal" party and everyone ended up drunk and scrolling on the phone you'd not posit that as how weird non-religious people are :)
dh2022 1y ago
How does the congregation chip in for new babies? Does the congregation provide cheap daycare? Or cheap college ? Lack of both was the main reason me and my wife have only 1 child. My religious friends also have 3 kids for each family. College (or vaccination for that matter) is not in the cards for these kids. The wives stay at home to take care of the kids. The families live out in the boonies - the dads have 1 hour commute.and even so they are leveraged to the hilt: they bought their homes with a regular loan + HELOC. The kids are very religious-they shun Halloween and video-games for example (but the girls have their Instagram accounts ). For each his own I guess.
- xyzelement 1y ago
  I think I just replied to you on a different thread, but I'll also comment here. It's a matter of priorities. ~4 years ago I moved from NYC to the burbs to have room and a high quality of life for my (now 3) kids. It lengthened my commute and increased my housing costs but I perceive it as unquestionably WORTH it, and I suspect your friends do too. If your friends were given the choice to not have a HELOC and not have one of their kids - they'll take the HELOC and the kid. It's not an unreasonable choice. Kids shunning video games and probably less device addiction in general and more face-to-face engagement with friends and family -- weird to talk about that as a negative in this day and age. I suppose you were the same guy that saw it as negative that your religious friends sang songs around the piano? >> Does the congregation provide cheap daycare? Or cheap college ? Lack of both was the main reason me and my wife have only 1 child. frankly if it was important you'd figure it out. I have a cop friend who had 7 kids (3 own, 4 adopted). How do they make it work on a cop's salary? They make it work. He's got a long commute and a beater car but there's no part of him that'd trade those things for a nice car but only 1 kid.

xyzelement 1y ago

Really sad - it's a sort of tangible vision of what it means to have forsaken Gd and be forsaken by him.

andrewmcwatters 1y ago
Yeah, I think that’s a fair argument. It’s easily been the most clear indicator of social connective health I’ve seen over the course of my life regardless of faith background.
- whatajoke69420 1y ago
  Nah, I think that's a really inane argument. Religious fervor (loosely defined as "Religion is a good thing") is the most clear indicator I've seen of social decay over the course of my life, regardless of which particular faith it is.
- dh2022 1y ago
  I think you need to go out more often:). But seriously: this type of social connection works for some people and does not work for others. At church you are not allowed to question. When people pray you are supposed to bow your head. You are supposed to be quiet. I went to a few church services when a few of my friends invited me. I stuck out like a sore thumb. At the door on my way out the church greeters wished me well-while avoiding any eye contact. To each his own, I guess.
  - xyzelement 1y ago
    I would compare the experience you had in church to dropping in on an advanced math class or a powerlifting gym. When it's your first time, of course you don't know what to do and what it means - but that's a reflection of your being a novice rather than a comment on the thing itself or your ability to benefit from it. I can try to make an example. The reason people bow their heads in prayer is to acknowledge our finite mortality and limitation, in the face of the eternal. It puts us in our place, and creates the correct mindset for the prayer. For someone who prays, the bowing of the head isn't just "what you're supposed to do" but an indication of something much more significant and impactful on one's life. In fact, the idea represented by bowing down in prayer, and the topic of this thread (relationship between religiocity and stance on grief) can be connected.
    - dh2022 1y ago
      Bowing your head in church and keeping your mouth shut when the pastor says something silly is very different than behavior in an advanced math class (I do not know about powerlifting gym). In the advanced math classes I attended discussion and clarification was encouraged. In my stochastic calculus class the professor once made a mistake - which the brightest student caught. The professor thought about it for a few seconds, said this is a mistake indeed and he does not know how to fix at that time; then kept going. At the next class the professor came up with the solution to the mistake. Imagine standing up in the middle of the church and saying something about evolution. Very different behavior / attitude. Like I said, to each his own.
      - xyzelement 1y ago
        I can tell you're not familiar with religious approaches so I can share my own experiences. I come at this from the Jewish perspective but I don't represent all branches of Judaism obviously and likewise I am sure there're Christians whose approach is further or closer to what I am describing. You're right that if you started shouting about evolution during prayer time, you'd be just an asshole - same as if I interrupted my biology lecturer to talk about the book of Genesis. There's a time and place. The most proximate example is when we read the Torah and the reader (whether that's the rabbi or someone else) makes a mistake, the community corrects him. There are certain things we take as tenets of faith, and it's not up to the reader - or any in-the-moment leader - to mis-state them. But closer to the spirit of what you're saying - attending a church service is not the sole religious experience. For example, there are lots of classes on interpreting scripture on ever-deeper levels, and finally the Talmud itself which is basically a narrative of logical and philosophical debate. Questioning and challenging "what this means" is an expected, welcome, and necessary element of engaging with those things. For Jews especially, exploring and questioning our religion is part of the experience. There are things we take as tenets that form our basic understanding and from those axioms it's all built via logic and subject to examination.

whatajoke69420 1y ago

[flagged]

xyzelement 1y ago
How many kids do you have? It's hilarious that atheists are so smart and "it's just Darwinism" and then they literally die on that hill. Maybe there's something to this "sky deity" thing if the only people in the next generations are kids of those who believe.
- dh2022 1y ago
  It is hilarious :) "Idiocracy" is where the "only sky deity worshippers pro-create" movie ends. I happen to have religious friends. They invited me once to a Christmas dinner - about 5 families. My and my wife were the only ones who did not have at least 2 kids (we had no kids at that time). My wife was the only woman working, and I was the only one who was not working construction - one of the guys made this remark, not me. During the dinner the male host started playing on a keyboard. There was a chorus of women singing religious hymns around him (I am not making this up). One of the guys tried to convert me. All in good nature and polite and with no confrontation - these are all good people and we saw each other after that. But I skipped Christmas at their house the following year :)
  - xyzelement 1y ago
    Sounds like you have kids now and that's wonderful! "Wife being the only woman working" is an odd metric though. My wife went from being an ER physician when we met (fun times during COVID pregnant with our first) to doing telemedicine after we had our second, to doing that part time after we had our third. Similar to many women in our circle who are highly educated and professional, kids mean "working less" but this decision represents a desired and meaningful tradeoff. My wife loved her work but she (obviously?) loves being there for our children even more. At the end of the day, I suspect "singing around the piano" is a W not an L. It's funny that if you went to a "normal" party and everyone ended up drunk and scrolling on the phone you'd not posit that as how weird non-religious people are :)

dh2022 1y ago

How does the congregation chip in for new babies? Does the congregation provide cheap daycare? Or cheap college ? Lack of both was the main reason me and my wife have only 1 child. My religious friends also have 3 kids for each family. College (or vaccination for that matter) is not in the cards for these kids. The wives stay at home to take care of the kids. The families live out in the boonies - the dads have 1 hour commute.and even so they are leveraged to the hilt: they bought their homes with a regular loan + HELOC. The kids are very religious-they shun Halloween and video-games for example (but the girls have their Instagram accounts ). For each his own I guess.

xyzelement 1y ago
I think I just replied to you on a different thread, but I'll also comment here. It's a matter of priorities. ~4 years ago I moved from NYC to the burbs to have room and a high quality of life for my (now 3) kids. It lengthened my commute and increased my housing costs but I perceive it as unquestionably WORTH it, and I suspect your friends do too. If your friends were given the choice to not have a HELOC and not have one of their kids - they'll take the HELOC and the kid. It's not an unreasonable choice. Kids shunning video games and probably less device addiction in general and more face-to-face engagement with friends and family -- weird to talk about that as a negative in this day and age. I suppose you were the same guy that saw it as negative that your religious friends sang songs around the piano? >> Does the congregation provide cheap daycare? Or cheap college ? Lack of both was the main reason me and my wife have only 1 child. frankly if it was important you'd figure it out. I have a cop friend who had 7 kids (3 own, 4 adopted). How do they make it work on a cop's salary? They make it work. He's got a long commute and a beater car but there's no part of him that'd trade those things for a nice car but only 1 kid.