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> How do you square that with the objectively terrible results of all the times in the last 100 I can't hear you over the sounds of China's rise to number one,

> How do you square that with the objectively terrible results of all the times in the last 100 I can't hear you over the sounds of China's rise to number one, my real life lived experience of the last 30 years of stagnation in the US, and the complete lack of political willpower in US leadership to put any effort into actually doing their jobs.

appreciatorBus 1y ago
Is that same China that murdered tens of millions of its own during the Great (sic) Leap Forward or a different one? The same China in which anyone who can, tries to get a passport from a western Liberal democracy? There’s plenty of sclerosis to complain about in the West, and there’s no question that China has done well in the last few decades. But the original poster was implying that he was coming around to the idea that using violence to get rid of markets was justified. An example involving China, in my opinion, would have to go the other way and conclude that their violent revolution was a bloody failure until they re-embraced markets.
- maxglute 1y ago
  No one said get rid of markets, just tune markets where profit motive is not what it is now. ... It's the same PRC that killed the landlords and then a bunch of peasants to force transition from subsistent agrarian society to an industrialized one, just post GLF, i.e. IMF noted that PRC in 70s (shortly after GLF) was significantly more industrialized than developing peers who started around same condition. It's the same China where rich Chinese want LIO passport BECAUSE they know LIO democracies are so corrupt and captured by money that their black money is safe. Which is more indictment of western sclerosis, because they don't believe west can do the hard things to fix current economic model. Whether you think current model is broken / needs fixing is up for debate, but fixing hard problems on short timelines, i.e. drastic change may require breaking eggs aka violence. That's the objective lesson when one examines past 100 years into illustrative history. Violence (revolution, wars, state collapse) break entrenched/sclerosis systems that build up on century cycles (rough heuristic). It's the same pattern that China and other older countries (including western ones that are now LIO), who has gone through these cycles have learned and that young US will likely eventually also learn. You break systems (and markets) with violence and then rebuild it, hopefully better than you started. But sometimes not. But at some point the only feasible fix, is pitchforks.
- DengistKhan 1y ago
  I'm a lot more concerned about the current Great Leap Backwards than some random thing Mao did in the 60s that literally nobody is talking about doing again.
  - appreciatorBus 1y ago
    I dunno man, feels like there are a lot of ppl on left and right today flirting with those ideas.

appreciatorBus 1y ago

Is that same China that murdered tens of millions of its own during the Great (sic) Leap Forward or a different one? The same China in which anyone who can, tries to get a passport from a western Liberal democracy? There’s plenty of sclerosis to complain about in the West, and there’s no question that China has done well in the last few decades. But the original poster was implying that he was coming around to the idea that using violence to get rid of markets was justified. An example involving China, in my opinion, would have to go the other way and conclude that their violent revolution was a bloody failure until they re-embraced markets.

maxglute 1y ago
No one said get rid of markets, just tune markets where profit motive is not what it is now. ... It's the same PRC that killed the landlords and then a bunch of peasants to force transition from subsistent agrarian society to an industrialized one, just post GLF, i.e. IMF noted that PRC in 70s (shortly after GLF) was significantly more industrialized than developing peers who started around same condition. It's the same China where rich Chinese want LIO passport BECAUSE they know LIO democracies are so corrupt and captured by money that their black money is safe. Which is more indictment of western sclerosis, because they don't believe west can do the hard things to fix current economic model. Whether you think current model is broken / needs fixing is up for debate, but fixing hard problems on short timelines, i.e. drastic change may require breaking eggs aka violence. That's the objective lesson when one examines past 100 years into illustrative history. Violence (revolution, wars, state collapse) break entrenched/sclerosis systems that build up on century cycles (rough heuristic). It's the same pattern that China and other older countries (including western ones that are now LIO), who has gone through these cycles have learned and that young US will likely eventually also learn. You break systems (and markets) with violence and then rebuild it, hopefully better than you started. But sometimes not. But at some point the only feasible fix, is pitchforks.
DengistKhan 1y ago
I'm a lot more concerned about the current Great Leap Backwards than some random thing Mao did in the 60s that literally nobody is talking about doing again.
- appreciatorBus 1y ago
  I dunno man, feels like there are a lot of ppl on left and right today flirting with those ideas.