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"Never again" - Was that ever an idea that Israel committed to? I thought this is only something that Germany and potentially other countries committed to, and

"Never again" - Was that ever an idea that Israel committed to? I thought this is only something that Germany and potentially other countries committed to, and Israel saw itself as the victim since forever, so they have no reason to commit to anything, but the victim card, which allowed them to have their own country in the first place. Note though, that Germany's commitment to "never again" got somehow repurposed in exactly letting the thing happen again. Be it because politicians here are not actually educated enough to recognize the thing they should prevent, want to close their eyes to the fact that the once-victim now perpetrator, did it and they did nothing to stop it, they just don't care, the weapon exports are just too good of a business, or whatever. Germany has utterly failed to prevent the thing from happening ever again, and Israel has proven our collective "blind spot". The one entity, that no German politician is allowed to criticize. And still the political climate is such that, most likely, if you criticize Israel in any way, your political career is over and you get branded as an anti-Semite. Oh the irony of it. While it should actually be a huge headline in every newspaper, that Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians and is still committing it as we sit here, the newspapers are awfully quiet. It seems like it is not even worth a headline. Man, the truth hurts. Sucks when your reporting has been so biased all along. Hard to make a 165 degree turn now, I guess (I give them 15 degree, for the occasional reporting on the matter at all.).

jazzyjackson 1y ago
> which allowed them to have their own country That's a weird thing to say, I thought it was because they set up governance amid a collapsed empire and defended themselves in a war
- Sabinus 1y ago
  There's a belief in the western left that Israel was set up by Western countries as colonialism. That way they can more easily call for the dissolving of the illegitimate country for a 1 state solution. If you acknowledge that the Jews were elbowing their way into the area of their own desire for a state, against the wishes of the Ottomans and then British, it makes it more difficult to paint them as evil invaders.
  - sillyfluke 1y ago
    >against the wishes of the Ottomans and then the British Who has convincingly argued that it was against the wishes of the British? It was the British government's stated objectives.[0][1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      Jerusalem had been majority Jewish for decades before the Balfour declaration. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerus...
      - sillyfluke 1y ago
        Your claim has nothing to do with the sentence I quoted or my response to it.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        I was refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state. British presence or no British presence, Jerusalem was already Jewish decades before the fall of the Ottomans.
        sillyfluke 1y ago
        You're insisting on responding to some phantom comment no one made in order make it seem other people's opinion is not supported by overwhelming facts. >I was refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state. No one said this. What was claimed was that Jews were elbowing into the area against the wishes of the British without any references. I asked for evidence that it was against the wishes of the British because it was news to me and presented references pointing to the contrary. Neither you or the commenter have presented any evidence yet that it was "against the wishes of the British". I will quote you again: >I was refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state. How would you wish me to read this sentence? So you are refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state, so by refuting it you're saying that the British had a lot to do with the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine?
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  The idea is, that without the victim role of the Jews in the 2.WW, they would never have had the international support, that they enjoyed for decades. They would never have had the "social credits" among nations, that they had. Countries like Germany, supposedly would have opened their mouth much sooner and sanctioned Israel, if it were not for our perpetrator role in 2.WW. The idea was, that finally the Jews have a safe haven, and that that needs to be protected. Israel has been playing that victim card for decades. It allowed them to get where they are. Now that card is crumbling, as they did the unthinkable. I hope that one day our German politicians will also realize this. It is becoming quite ridiculous, how Germany behaves in foreign policy in that regard, and many people here are ashamed of their own country and government. This is stuff that makes people vote for extremists, which I can tell you, we have no additional need for right now. To me it is unthinkable to ever elect the ruling parties again, due to how shitty they handled everything. Well, already wouldn't vote for them anyway, because of all the corruption in their ranks.

jazzyjackson 1y ago

> which allowed them to have their own country That's a weird thing to say, I thought it was because they set up governance amid a collapsed empire and defended themselves in a war

Sabinus 1y ago
There's a belief in the western left that Israel was set up by Western countries as colonialism. That way they can more easily call for the dissolving of the illegitimate country for a 1 state solution. If you acknowledge that the Jews were elbowing their way into the area of their own desire for a state, against the wishes of the Ottomans and then British, it makes it more difficult to paint them as evil invaders.
- sillyfluke 1y ago
  >against the wishes of the Ottomans and then the British Who has convincingly argued that it was against the wishes of the British? It was the British government's stated objectives.[0][1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    Jerusalem had been majority Jewish for decades before the Balfour declaration. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerus...
    - sillyfluke 1y ago
      Your claim has nothing to do with the sentence I quoted or my response to it.
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        I was refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state. British presence or no British presence, Jerusalem was already Jewish decades before the fall of the Ottomans.
        sillyfluke 1y ago
        You're insisting on responding to some phantom comment no one made in order make it seem other people's opinion is not supported by overwhelming facts. >I was refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state. No one said this. What was claimed was that Jews were elbowing into the area against the wishes of the British without any references. I asked for evidence that it was against the wishes of the British because it was news to me and presented references pointing to the contrary. Neither you or the commenter have presented any evidence yet that it was "against the wishes of the British". I will quote you again: >I was refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state. How would you wish me to read this sentence? So you are refuting the notion that British desires had little to do with the fact the Jews eventually created their own state, so by refuting it you're saying that the British had a lot to do with the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine?
zelphirkalt 1y ago
The idea is, that without the victim role of the Jews in the 2.WW, they would never have had the international support, that they enjoyed for decades. They would never have had the "social credits" among nations, that they had. Countries like Germany, supposedly would have opened their mouth much sooner and sanctioned Israel, if it were not for our perpetrator role in 2.WW. The idea was, that finally the Jews have a safe haven, and that that needs to be protected. Israel has been playing that victim card for decades. It allowed them to get where they are. Now that card is crumbling, as they did the unthinkable. I hope that one day our German politicians will also realize this. It is becoming quite ridiculous, how Germany behaves in foreign policy in that regard, and many people here are ashamed of their own country and government. This is stuff that makes people vote for extremists, which I can tell you, we have no additional need for right now. To me it is unthinkable to ever elect the ruling parties again, due to how shitty they handled everything. Well, already wouldn't vote for them anyway, because of all the corruption in their ranks.