4 ms·

What does de-escalation look like in Gaza? Allowing Hamas to regroup and re-arm, so they can repeat October 7 as they publicly promised to do?

zelphirkalt 1y ago
A newly created throwaway account, repeating the prop of a genocidal military. Surely you can do better than this.
- leoh 1y ago
  Actually it's quite a good point, because no one in this thread has suggested a sustainable long-term solution for this mutual madness. Hamas without question wishes for the total destruction of Israel.
  - amdivia 1y ago
    Define the destruction of Israel as Hamas sees it, because I think alot of details are getting lost there, and many assumptions are made within it
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      The Hamas charter states that their goal, and the responsibility of every Muslim, is Islam, and Islam must obliterate the Zionist state.
      - zelphirkalt 1y ago
        Zionist state - So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Maybe such a state should disappear and a sane state appear in its stead. It may be that Hamas has a different understanding of that, but I think, that this religious fanatics state thing is no good for Israel as a country anyway. It would do them good to get rid of that ideological baggage.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        > So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Though there does exist a small religious minority that does claim the holy land to belong to Jews as it was given by God, I only know one such person. Most Israelis feel that Israel should be a Jewish state because we earned the land in the same fashion as almost every other nation on Earth, and certainly in the same fashion as ever other nation in the Middle East. But I'll tell you who does think that certain land can only belong to people of a specific race. People who call the holy land "Palestinian land". The invention of that term was, as are many of the anti-Jewish arguments, an inversion of the Jewish use of "God -given land". And just as you reject the idea when it is used by Jews, so would a logical person reject the idea when used by our enemies.
        zelphirkalt 1y ago
        Of course, I would reject the same idea from the other side, no question. To me personally, all this religious hogwash about who is the chosen people and whatever amounts to no credible argument either way. Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead. But that is a side issue, since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take. It is not theirs, due to people living in that land and having lived there for many generations. Then armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them. That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution. So the point is the perpetrator, whether it is one side or the other, needs to stop, be put back into their internationally recognized borders, and we need to do what we can to make the perpetrator stay there.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        > Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead. Agreed 100% on that! Nobody was chosen and no land belongs securely to a single race. > since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take This is incorrect. As frequently as Israel is accused of "stealing land", all land that Israel holds was won in a defensive war. Now there are nuances of land belonging to the state, and occupation, and annexation, and personal property rights, and the relationship between different bodies ruling and maintaining (or not maintaining) areas A, B, and C. But Israel is not stealing land. If there are specific incidences that you would like to discuss, then please mention them. This is my hobby, I might have an answer )) > armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them. Please mention such an incident, I would much rather address a specific incident than talk in general. > That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution. Yes, I do agree that has happened. I'm not going to whitewash or deny facts. > be put back into their internationally recognized borders You should be aware that the internationally recognised borders of the state of Israel include Gaza and the West Bank (but not the Golden Heights). These are the borders of Mandatory Palestine after Jordan was cut off (1923 I believe). The green line is a cease fire line - not an internationally recognised border. This fact was used to justify many cross-border attacks against the state of Israel. The principal is that a successor state inherits the borders of its predecessor state.
  - zelphirkalt 1y ago
    The starting points are not so difficult to come up with: (1) Stop of all armed offensives. (2) Complete dismantling of genocidal and corrupt government. Netanyahu and his gang in front of international courts, and then afterwards additionally in front of an Israeli court. (3) Partial disarming of Israel, to restore a balance in the region, and keeping them from attacking more countries. Defensive weapons they may all keep, maybe even get more, but it really needs to be defensive stuff, for example to intercept missiles/rockets. Unfortunately, a lot of that stuff is needed more in Ukraine right now, which should take priority over Israeli needs. (4) Organization of elections. Israel needs to get back from authoritarianism to functioning democracy. This might be done with international help. Possibly reforms, that strengthen courts, so that a second Netanyahu is unlikely to happen again. (5) Long running rebuilding projects in at least Gaza, if not more countries, financed by Israel. (6) Probably some international peacekeeping will be needed. This should not only include personnel from western countries. Must be from countries not directly involved and not from the US, or some EU countries, that supplied weapons used for the genocide. (7) Negotiations are on again, this time with a new government, and mostly about how Israel thinks to aim for a peaceful future, in which it gives back illegally annexed territories, including, of course, illegal settlements in the west bank. This also includes all the illegally taken or occupied territory since founding, back to internationally recognized borders. That's mostly the Israeli side of things. Of course Hamas will also have to make concessions. For example there could also be disarming of Hamas, where this is the price to pay for release of prisoners and a portion of the illegally occupied territories by Israel. Hamas shouldn't be helpless, but also shouldn't be able to launch new significant offensives. There are many things, that can be done, and they are not difficult to see. They are difficult to execute in the current climate, where the powerful country has an authoritarian leadership, that is unwilling to compromise.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  GP wasn't me, but it's a great question. What does de-escalation look like in Gaza? Allowing Hamas to regroup and re-arm, so they can repeat October 7 as they publicly promised to do?

zelphirkalt 1y ago

A newly created throwaway account, repeating the prop of a genocidal military. Surely you can do better than this.

leoh 1y ago
Actually it's quite a good point, because no one in this thread has suggested a sustainable long-term solution for this mutual madness. Hamas without question wishes for the total destruction of Israel.
- amdivia 1y ago
  Define the destruction of Israel as Hamas sees it, because I think alot of details are getting lost there, and many assumptions are made within it
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    The Hamas charter states that their goal, and the responsibility of every Muslim, is Islam, and Islam must obliterate the Zionist state.
    - zelphirkalt 1y ago
      Zionist state - So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Maybe such a state should disappear and a sane state appear in its stead. It may be that Hamas has a different understanding of that, but I think, that this religious fanatics state thing is no good for Israel as a country anyway. It would do them good to get rid of that ideological baggage.
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        > So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Though there does exist a small religious minority that does claim the holy land to belong to Jews as it was given by God, I only know one such person. Most Israelis feel that Israel should be a Jewish state because we earned the land in the same fashion as almost every other nation on Earth, and certainly in the same fashion as ever other nation in the Middle East. But I'll tell you who does think that certain land can only belong to people of a specific race. People who call the holy land "Palestinian land". The invention of that term was, as are many of the anti-Jewish arguments, an inversion of the Jewish use of "God -given land". And just as you reject the idea when it is used by Jews, so would a logical person reject the idea when used by our enemies.
        zelphirkalt 1y ago
        Of course, I would reject the same idea from the other side, no question. To me personally, all this religious hogwash about who is the chosen people and whatever amounts to no credible argument either way. Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead. But that is a side issue, since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take. It is not theirs, due to people living in that land and having lived there for many generations. Then armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them. That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution. So the point is the perpetrator, whether it is one side or the other, needs to stop, be put back into their internationally recognized borders, and we need to do what we can to make the perpetrator stay there.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        > Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead. Agreed 100% on that! Nobody was chosen and no land belongs securely to a single race. > since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take This is incorrect. As frequently as Israel is accused of "stealing land", all land that Israel holds was won in a defensive war. Now there are nuances of land belonging to the state, and occupation, and annexation, and personal property rights, and the relationship between different bodies ruling and maintaining (or not maintaining) areas A, B, and C. But Israel is not stealing land. If there are specific incidences that you would like to discuss, then please mention them. This is my hobby, I might have an answer )) > armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them. Please mention such an incident, I would much rather address a specific incident than talk in general. > That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution. Yes, I do agree that has happened. I'm not going to whitewash or deny facts. > be put back into their internationally recognized borders You should be aware that the internationally recognised borders of the state of Israel include Gaza and the West Bank (but not the Golden Heights). These are the borders of Mandatory Palestine after Jordan was cut off (1923 I believe). The green line is a cease fire line - not an internationally recognised border. This fact was used to justify many cross-border attacks against the state of Israel. The principal is that a successor state inherits the borders of its predecessor state.
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  The starting points are not so difficult to come up with: (1) Stop of all armed offensives. (2) Complete dismantling of genocidal and corrupt government. Netanyahu and his gang in front of international courts, and then afterwards additionally in front of an Israeli court. (3) Partial disarming of Israel, to restore a balance in the region, and keeping them from attacking more countries. Defensive weapons they may all keep, maybe even get more, but it really needs to be defensive stuff, for example to intercept missiles/rockets. Unfortunately, a lot of that stuff is needed more in Ukraine right now, which should take priority over Israeli needs. (4) Organization of elections. Israel needs to get back from authoritarianism to functioning democracy. This might be done with international help. Possibly reforms, that strengthen courts, so that a second Netanyahu is unlikely to happen again. (5) Long running rebuilding projects in at least Gaza, if not more countries, financed by Israel. (6) Probably some international peacekeeping will be needed. This should not only include personnel from western countries. Must be from countries not directly involved and not from the US, or some EU countries, that supplied weapons used for the genocide. (7) Negotiations are on again, this time with a new government, and mostly about how Israel thinks to aim for a peaceful future, in which it gives back illegally annexed territories, including, of course, illegal settlements in the west bank. This also includes all the illegally taken or occupied territory since founding, back to internationally recognized borders. That's mostly the Israeli side of things. Of course Hamas will also have to make concessions. For example there could also be disarming of Hamas, where this is the price to pay for release of prisoners and a portion of the illegally occupied territories by Israel. Hamas shouldn't be helpless, but also shouldn't be able to launch new significant offensives. There are many things, that can be done, and they are not difficult to see. They are difficult to execute in the current climate, where the powerful country has an authoritarian leadership, that is unwilling to compromise.
dotancohen 1y ago
GP wasn't me, but it's a great question. What does de-escalation look like in Gaza? Allowing Hamas to regroup and re-arm, so they can repeat October 7 as they publicly promised to do?