5 ms·

Bosch Unveils New Brake Technology

28 points by effnorwood 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
sans_souse 1y ago
I was thinking about exactly this possibility just a few weeks ago. Always nice to see a new, innovative technology that allows higher granularity in control, without pushing additional bloat or further limiting other areas of user controls.. To anyone wondering this essentially turns your brake pedal into a gas-like brake pedal. Now what I'm wondering is, can we tie this all to the brake-light brightness?
- baby_souffle 1y ago
  As a species, people perceive brightness non-linearly and it even differs between individuals and with age. You would want to have a group of break lights could you light up in relation to the braking Force. 30% brightness is hard to figure out but one of three brake lights is easier to grock.
  - tracker1 1y ago
    I thought of such a beast for a long while... that it would be cool to have an LED array that increased in numbers based on brake pressure. Aside: anyone else ever been driving behind a large vehicle with the brake lights out? That's a not fun exercise right there.
    - tekno45 1y ago
      how does this improve the driving experience? Is "i wonder how hard they're breaking" really a problem? People drive too close to each other already
      - tracker1 1y ago
        When you're on a highway at 75-80mph in Phoenix towards the evening sun, and see a couple brake-lights ahead it can help understand the massive difference in terms of do I need to slam my own brakes or just take my foot off the accelerator alone.
- m463 1y ago
  brake lights are already disconnected from the brake pedal. many ev brake lights will come one based on deceleration, without touching the brake pedal.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  Brake lights already flash if you brake hard.
WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
The new tech is a Brake-by-Wire system controlled by a touch-sensitive pad. I did my best to extract details from the article's mountain of seo fluff. I think Bosch is trying to maximize complexity of a safety-critical system by deeply integrating it into all the other bits of the car. Okay. We do build war aircraft that way and they're awesome but they also need a steady stream of $billions to keep them flying. My recommendation if Bosch wants to be a radical leader in auto tech, invent tactile controls and place them where they can be reached w/o taking eyes off of roads. Then blow everyone away by inventing non-blinding headlights.
- kbos87 1y ago
  Non-blinding headlights already exist. Modern projection headlights can map where the light ends up on the road to illuminate your path while avoiding oncoming traffic. It just isn't widely adopted (in the US at least) as of yet.
  - yakz 1y ago
    Adaptive headlights have only been approved for use in the US for ~3 years. They were sold in cars in the US before that, but the adaptive function was disabled.
    - SkyPuncher 1y ago
      My truck was sold with them built in, but disabled. Turned it on via OBDII. Best feature of this vehicle. On country roads, it’s extremely valuable for keeping the shoulder lit up with high beams to see things like fear and bicycle.
      - WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
        > On country roads, it’s extremely valuable for keeping the shoulder lit up with high beams to see things like fear and bicycle. It is my experience that bicyclists and pedestrians aren't partial to the endless passing vehicles that are blinding them. Seeing is part of how they keep out of drivers way. I disagree that we should ruin their vision just so drivers can seem them even more than they used to.
commandersaki 1y ago
I'm suspicious of any physical control being replaced with anything touch sensitive.
- tracker1 1y ago
  I'm largely there with you... I've frankly always had mixed feelings about it. Nothing like having your brakes or steering lose pressure while driving down the highway. That said, steering without at least hydrolic/power assist is rough on your forearms.
  - toast0 1y ago
    A vehicle setup without power steering is a lot different than a vehicle with inoperative power steering. For one thing, they usually give you a bigger wheel, which helps with leverage. Power steering enables different steering geometries which likely wouldn't have been put together on a vehicle without power steering also. Exclusive brake by wire and/or steer by wire seem like they will add confusion and delay, and perhaps increased risk of injury when dealing with disabled vehicles. At least in my life, it's been pretty handy to be able to get a non-responsive vehicle into neutral and push it to somewhere else in order to get it out of the way of traffic or to have better access to repair it. That often means using the vehicle steering to help direct it to a good spot, and the vehicle brakes to stop it when it gets there. Accelerator-by-wire is more acceptable, as vehicle without working electrics doesn't need a working accelerator pedal; I have driven one vehicle with what I assume was drive by wire with significant latency, it wasn't enjoyable, but it was usable.
- m463 1y ago
  waiting for... doesn't work when feet are wet. Honestly, I think *-by-wire technology can exist, but I don't think it should be trusted to cost-reduction-at-any-cost manufacturers. I've heard the cybertruck steer-by-wire has a control lag. And then there's the no-mechanical-escape door handles.
  - subscribed 1y ago
    I have throttle-by-wire on my motorcycle and I love it. Very precise and safe.
jdlshore 1y ago
Terrible slop of an article that doesn’t say a single thing about why this new technology (brake-by-wire with a touch-sensitive pad) is better than existing approaches, other than it being “more sensitive.”
- HPsquared 1y ago
  A lot of engineering of hydraulic brakes goes into minimising the pedal stroke, i.e. the distance the pedal moves when you press it hard. It makes it easier to control , supposedly. Also it's hard to tune the feel and response of hybrid braking systems where there's a transition between regenerative and hydraulic brakes. Maybe removing the mechanical link actually could simplify a few things.
warpspin 1y ago
2024
MarkusWandel 1y ago
Brake-by-wire sounds scary. In my current, recent-ish car, you can still control it - with more effort - if engine and/or electrics are out. I've had the experience of driving home with a suddenly failed alternator, watching one system after another report offline, until as I turned into my street, the power steering went too. But I was able to safely drive it to my driveway (with 7V remaining on the battery). I'd rather that cars stay that way, and not just because I'm a grumpy old man in training. I do wonder about ABS and always have. If ABS can make the brakes not brake even as you fully stomp the pedal - is there a reasonably conceivable failure mode that would simply prevent you from braking despite perfectly good hydraulics and a stomped pedal?
- topspin 1y ago
  > If ABS can make the brakes not brake even as you fully stomp the pedal - is there a reasonably conceivable failure mode that would simply prevent you from braking despite perfectly good hydraulics and a stomped pedal? The answer is not simple, as it has changed over time. Early anti-lock systems were so limited that the system would, indeed, fail to utilize the maximum possible braking force. This was known, and yet these were deployed, because the research said that maintaining directional control, the primary benefit of anti-lock, had greater safety value than the compromise of maximum braking performance. Today, however, anti-lock is greatly improved, and anti-lock systems are capable of applying extremely high braking force, even to the point of exceeding thermal design limits (overheat) of the brake system components. The sensors are sampling at higher frequency, the braking models are far more accurate and the computers are faster in current vehicles. So current anti-lock can perform at near the absolute limit. Further, current systems can actually detect panic. Drivers often fail to even use the full braking force available. Current vehicles can detect when sudden, high braking force is applied, switch into "emergency mode" and boost braking force beyond what the driver is demanding. These features started appearing in the early 2000's. Nissan, for instance, introduced "Brake Assist" in 2001, with the 2002 the Altima redesign (L31 platform) and the Maxima. It has the "panic mode" behavior I've described. I personally experienced this once about 15 years ago. Somehow I distracted myself, and when my attention returned I was closing with stopped vehicles at too high a speed and too little remaining distance. Collision was certain and my foot crushed the brake: pure panic, and I never let up. I came to a stop in a blessedly unoccupied left turn lane almost aligned with the stopped vehicles. I recall looking over my hood at the driver of the car I'd nearly hit: between us was a wisp of brake smoke drifting up from passenger fender. I could smell the brakes. The anti-lock did that. If I had had no anti-lock, all directional control would have been lost and my maneuver into the unoccupied lane would have been impossible. If the anti-lock had not applied as much force as it did, I would have been in the intersection, possibly getting t-boned. So they're pretty good today, and I appreciate modern anti-lock designs.
dzhiurgis 1y ago
Soooo is it disc brakes or what? Tesla's move to unboxed model means they won't be able to have hydraulic lines. 48V means more power, but still need something like 50A per brake disc, IMO non starter for Tesla. Is it going to be batteries/supercapacitors or some other novel brake design.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  Do brakes really need much power? It's a lot of force but a small distance.
MaciejR 1y ago
Brake-by-Wire has been in production cars for quite some time, BMW has had it starting in the Gxx generation since ‘19.
- grepfru_it 1y ago
  I believe this is fully brake by wire, where as existing brake by wire still has hydraulic backup
thrill 1y ago
I do hope the pressure-sensitive pad has some “give” in it to provide physical feedback to the driver. Way back when the F-16 first began flying in production, the side stick was rigid, and more than one pilot would return with bruised arm muscles from pulling as hard as possible wondering if they had more available. While braking in a car doesn’t have the same frequency of needing full deflection (short of having to ride with my wife’s friend driving), there’s likely to be some similar discomfort from wondering how much more braking is available.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 1y ago
  I heard there were some who broke it and then had to eject
lttlrck 1y ago
If "touch sensitive" means it's a load cell then that's not so bad, simracing has used load cells for years and they work very well.

28 points by effnorwood 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

I was thinking about exactly this possibility just a few weeks ago. Always nice to see a new, innovative technology that allows higher granularity in control, without pushing additional bloat or further limiting other areas of user controls.. To anyone wondering this essentially turns your brake pedal into a gas-like brake pedal. Now what I'm wondering is, can we tie this all to the brake-light brightness?

baby_souffle 1y ago
As a species, people perceive brightness non-linearly and it even differs between individuals and with age. You would want to have a group of break lights could you light up in relation to the braking Force. 30% brightness is hard to figure out but one of three brake lights is easier to grock.
- tracker1 1y ago
  I thought of such a beast for a long while... that it would be cool to have an LED array that increased in numbers based on brake pressure. Aside: anyone else ever been driving behind a large vehicle with the brake lights out? That's a not fun exercise right there.
  - tekno45 1y ago
    how does this improve the driving experience? Is "i wonder how hard they're breaking" really a problem? People drive too close to each other already
    - tracker1 1y ago
      When you're on a highway at 75-80mph in Phoenix towards the evening sun, and see a couple brake-lights ahead it can help understand the massive difference in terms of do I need to slam my own brakes or just take my foot off the accelerator alone.
m463 1y ago
brake lights are already disconnected from the brake pedal. many ev brake lights will come one based on deceleration, without touching the brake pedal.
HPsquared 1y ago
Brake lights already flash if you brake hard.

WarOnPrivacy 1y ago

The new tech is a Brake-by-Wire system controlled by a touch-sensitive pad. I did my best to extract details from the article's mountain of seo fluff. I think Bosch is trying to maximize complexity of a safety-critical system by deeply integrating it into all the other bits of the car. Okay. We do build war aircraft that way and they're awesome but they also need a steady stream of $billions to keep them flying. My recommendation if Bosch wants to be a radical leader in auto tech, invent tactile controls and place them where they can be reached w/o taking eyes off of roads. Then blow everyone away by inventing non-blinding headlights.

kbos87 1y ago
Non-blinding headlights already exist. Modern projection headlights can map where the light ends up on the road to illuminate your path while avoiding oncoming traffic. It just isn't widely adopted (in the US at least) as of yet.
- yakz 1y ago
  Adaptive headlights have only been approved for use in the US for ~3 years. They were sold in cars in the US before that, but the adaptive function was disabled.
  - SkyPuncher 1y ago
    My truck was sold with them built in, but disabled. Turned it on via OBDII. Best feature of this vehicle. On country roads, it’s extremely valuable for keeping the shoulder lit up with high beams to see things like fear and bicycle.
    - WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
      > On country roads, it’s extremely valuable for keeping the shoulder lit up with high beams to see things like fear and bicycle. It is my experience that bicyclists and pedestrians aren't partial to the endless passing vehicles that are blinding them. Seeing is part of how they keep out of drivers way. I disagree that we should ruin their vision just so drivers can seem them even more than they used to.

commandersaki 1y ago

I'm suspicious of any physical control being replaced with anything touch sensitive.

tracker1 1y ago
I'm largely there with you... I've frankly always had mixed feelings about it. Nothing like having your brakes or steering lose pressure while driving down the highway. That said, steering without at least hydrolic/power assist is rough on your forearms.
- toast0 1y ago
  A vehicle setup without power steering is a lot different than a vehicle with inoperative power steering. For one thing, they usually give you a bigger wheel, which helps with leverage. Power steering enables different steering geometries which likely wouldn't have been put together on a vehicle without power steering also. Exclusive brake by wire and/or steer by wire seem like they will add confusion and delay, and perhaps increased risk of injury when dealing with disabled vehicles. At least in my life, it's been pretty handy to be able to get a non-responsive vehicle into neutral and push it to somewhere else in order to get it out of the way of traffic or to have better access to repair it. That often means using the vehicle steering to help direct it to a good spot, and the vehicle brakes to stop it when it gets there. Accelerator-by-wire is more acceptable, as vehicle without working electrics doesn't need a working accelerator pedal; I have driven one vehicle with what I assume was drive by wire with significant latency, it wasn't enjoyable, but it was usable.
m463 1y ago
waiting for... doesn't work when feet are wet. Honestly, I think *-by-wire technology can exist, but I don't think it should be trusted to cost-reduction-at-any-cost manufacturers. I've heard the cybertruck steer-by-wire has a control lag. And then there's the no-mechanical-escape door handles.
- subscribed 1y ago
  I have throttle-by-wire on my motorcycle and I love it. Very precise and safe.

jdlshore 1y ago

Terrible slop of an article that doesn’t say a single thing about why this new technology (brake-by-wire with a touch-sensitive pad) is better than existing approaches, other than it being “more sensitive.”

HPsquared 1y ago
A lot of engineering of hydraulic brakes goes into minimising the pedal stroke, i.e. the distance the pedal moves when you press it hard. It makes it easier to control , supposedly. Also it's hard to tune the feel and response of hybrid braking systems where there's a transition between regenerative and hydraulic brakes. Maybe removing the mechanical link actually could simplify a few things.

warpspin 1y ago

2024

MarkusWandel 1y ago

Brake-by-wire sounds scary. In my current, recent-ish car, you can still control it - with more effort - if engine and/or electrics are out. I've had the experience of driving home with a suddenly failed alternator, watching one system after another report offline, until as I turned into my street, the power steering went too. But I was able to safely drive it to my driveway (with 7V remaining on the battery). I'd rather that cars stay that way, and not just because I'm a grumpy old man in training. I do wonder about ABS and always have. If ABS can make the brakes not brake even as you fully stomp the pedal - is there a reasonably conceivable failure mode that would simply prevent you from braking despite perfectly good hydraulics and a stomped pedal?

topspin 1y ago
> If ABS can make the brakes not brake even as you fully stomp the pedal - is there a reasonably conceivable failure mode that would simply prevent you from braking despite perfectly good hydraulics and a stomped pedal? The answer is not simple, as it has changed over time. Early anti-lock systems were so limited that the system would, indeed, fail to utilize the maximum possible braking force. This was known, and yet these were deployed, because the research said that maintaining directional control, the primary benefit of anti-lock, had greater safety value than the compromise of maximum braking performance. Today, however, anti-lock is greatly improved, and anti-lock systems are capable of applying extremely high braking force, even to the point of exceeding thermal design limits (overheat) of the brake system components. The sensors are sampling at higher frequency, the braking models are far more accurate and the computers are faster in current vehicles. So current anti-lock can perform at near the absolute limit. Further, current systems can actually detect panic. Drivers often fail to even use the full braking force available. Current vehicles can detect when sudden, high braking force is applied, switch into "emergency mode" and boost braking force beyond what the driver is demanding. These features started appearing in the early 2000's. Nissan, for instance, introduced "Brake Assist" in 2001, with the 2002 the Altima redesign (L31 platform) and the Maxima. It has the "panic mode" behavior I've described. I personally experienced this once about 15 years ago. Somehow I distracted myself, and when my attention returned I was closing with stopped vehicles at too high a speed and too little remaining distance. Collision was certain and my foot crushed the brake: pure panic, and I never let up. I came to a stop in a blessedly unoccupied left turn lane almost aligned with the stopped vehicles. I recall looking over my hood at the driver of the car I'd nearly hit: between us was a wisp of brake smoke drifting up from passenger fender. I could smell the brakes. The anti-lock did that. If I had had no anti-lock, all directional control would have been lost and my maneuver into the unoccupied lane would have been impossible. If the anti-lock had not applied as much force as it did, I would have been in the intersection, possibly getting t-boned. So they're pretty good today, and I appreciate modern anti-lock designs.

dzhiurgis 1y ago

Soooo is it disc brakes or what? Tesla's move to unboxed model means they won't be able to have hydraulic lines. 48V means more power, but still need something like 50A per brake disc, IMO non starter for Tesla. Is it going to be batteries/supercapacitors or some other novel brake design.

HPsquared 1y ago
Do brakes really need much power? It's a lot of force but a small distance.

MaciejR 1y ago

Brake-by-Wire has been in production cars for quite some time, BMW has had it starting in the Gxx generation since ‘19.

grepfru_it 1y ago
I believe this is fully brake by wire, where as existing brake by wire still has hydraulic backup

thrill 1y ago

I do hope the pressure-sensitive pad has some “give” in it to provide physical feedback to the driver. Way back when the F-16 first began flying in production, the side stick was rigid, and more than one pilot would return with bruised arm muscles from pulling as hard as possible wondering if they had more available. While braking in a car doesn’t have the same frequency of needing full deflection (short of having to ride with my wife’s friend driving), there’s likely to be some similar discomfort from wondering how much more braking is available.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 1y ago
I heard there were some who broke it and then had to eject

lttlrck 1y ago

If "touch sensitive" means it's a load cell then that's not so bad, simracing has used load cells for years and they work very well.