5 ms·

The trouble is, what is the right medium or long term solution. If Israel militarily fails as a state, which seems to me to be an implicit aim of a significant

by leoh 1y ago

The trouble is, what is the right medium or long term solution. If Israel militarily fails as a state, which seems to me to be an implicit aim of a significant number of anti-Israel folks, the results will make the current Gaza conflict look like a joke.

bigyabai 1y ago
Short-term, Israel should have pumped the breaks on disproportionate response. Dahiya doctrine never worked, and now Hamas has successfully leveraged it to win (undue!) international credibility. If a policy of de-escalation can be honored, you can lay the groundwork for a medium/long term solution that respects all sovereign parties.
- velcrohn 1y ago
  What does de-escalation look like in Gaza? Allowing Hamas to regroup and re-arm, so they can repeat October 7 as they publicly promised to do?
  - zelphirkalt 1y ago
    A newly created throwaway account, repeating the prop of a genocidal military. Surely you can do better than this.
    - leoh 1y ago
      Actually it's quite a good point, because no one in this thread has suggested a sustainable long-term solution for this mutual madness. Hamas without question wishes for the total destruction of Israel.
      - amdivia 1y ago
        Define the destruction of Israel as Hamas sees it, because I think alot of details are getting lost there, and many assumptions are made within it
        dotancohen 1y ago
        The Hamas charter states that their goal, and the responsibility of every Muslim, is Islam, and Islam must obliterate the Zionist state.
        zelphirkalt 1y ago
        Zionist state - So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Maybe such a state should disappear and a sane state appear in its stead. It may be that Hamas has a different understanding of that, but I think, that this religious fanatics state thing is no good for Israel as a country anyway. It would do them good to get rid of that ideological baggage.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        > So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Though there does exist a small religious minority that does claim the holy land to belong to Jews as it was given by God, I only know one such person. Most Israelis feel that Israel should be a Jewish state because we earned the land in the same fashion as almost every other nation on Earth, and certainly in the same fashion as ever other nation in the Middle East. But I'll tell you who does think that certain land can only belong to people of a specific race. People who call the holy land "Palestinian land". The invention of that term was, as are many of the anti-Jewish arguments, an inversion of the Jewish use of "God -given land". And just as you reject the idea when it is used by Jews, so would a logical person reject the idea when used by our enemies.
        zelphirkalt 1y ago
        Of course, I would reject the same idea from the other side, no question. To me personally, all this religious hogwash about who is the chosen people and whatever amounts to no credible argument either way. Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead. But that is a side issue, since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take. It is not theirs, due to people living in that land and having lived there for many generations. Then armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them. That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution. So the point is the perpetrator, whether it is one side or the other, needs to stop, be put back into their internationally recognized borders, and we need to do what we can to make the perpetrator stay there.
      - zelphirkalt 1y ago
        The starting points are not so difficult to come up with: (1) Stop of all armed offensives. (2) Complete dismantling of genocidal and corrupt government. Netanyahu and his gang in front of international courts, and then afterwards additionally in front of an Israeli court. (3) Partial disarming of Israel, to restore a balance in the region, and keeping them from attacking more countries. Defensive weapons they may all keep, maybe even get more, but it really needs to be defensive stuff, for example to intercept missiles/rockets. Unfortunately, a lot of that stuff is needed more in Ukraine right now, which should take priority over Israeli needs. (4) Organization of elections. Israel needs to get back from authoritarianism to functioning democracy. This might be done with international help. Possibly reforms, that strengthen courts, so that a second Netanyahu is unlikely to happen again. (5) Long running rebuilding projects in at least Gaza, if not more countries, financed by Israel. (6) Probably some international peacekeeping will be needed. This should not only include personnel from western countries. Must be from countries not directly involved and not from the US, or some EU countries, that supplied weapons used for the genocide. (7) Negotiations are on again, this time with a new government, and mostly about how Israel thinks to aim for a peaceful future, in which it gives back illegally annexed territories, including, of course, illegal settlements in the west bank. This also includes all the illegally taken or occupied territory since founding, back to internationally recognized borders. That's mostly the Israeli side of things. Of course Hamas will also have to make concessions. For example there could also be disarming of Hamas, where this is the price to pay for release of prisoners and a portion of the illegally occupied territories by Israel. Hamas shouldn't be helpless, but also shouldn't be able to launch new significant offensives. There are many things, that can be done, and they are not difficult to see. They are difficult to execute in the current climate, where the powerful country has an authoritarian leadership, that is unwilling to compromise.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      GP wasn't me, but it's a great question. What does de-escalation look like in Gaza? Allowing Hamas to regroup and re-arm, so they can repeat October 7 as they publicly promised to do?
buyucu 1y ago
[flagged]
- MagicMoonlight 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - vFunct 1y ago
    The best part is the anti-Hamas crowd will always claim Hamas raped women on October 7, but will conveniently leave out basic details, like the names of any alleged rape victims that were confirmed to have been raped.
    - leoh 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - peanuty1 1y ago
        There is nothing anti-semitic about what the parent poster said. Any criticism of Israelis is anti-semitic according to Israel.
        leoh 1y ago
        So a few Arabs from Gaza kind of just hung out and went home. And Israel retaliated. Got it.
        otterley 1y ago
        It’s not the criticism itself that is anti-Semitic. There’s plenty of criticism of Israeli actions and politics that don’t come across that way. But you can tell who’s anti-Semitic by they way are attracted like moths to a light bulb to any story that has some connection (regardless of how distant that connection is) to Jews or Israel to get on a soapbox about how bad Israel is. And when confronted with accusations of their anti-Semitism, they rarely deny it. Instead, like you, they try to turn it around on the accuser. It’s similar to the way you can tell who’s simply angry at his wife over a recent spat, and who’s a misogynist.
aucisson_masque 1y ago
You are misinterpreting the facts. Israel bombing Qatar for instance is only going to bring them more hate from Arabians, they could have fought back on the hamas while maintaining peace with the rest of the Arab world. There was an alliance in 2020 between Israel and UAE United Arab Emirates. No need to say that it’s not the most promising alliance anymore. Other countries that were neutral on Israel see their arabian population utterly hate Israel so they have to adapt and behave consequently. They manage to unite the whole Arab front against them when they should have played on their division. This is really a bad plan on long term. Despite what trump is saying, Iran nuclear weapon is very close. They failed on that matter too although there was a real opportunity with the agreement during Obama. I don’t see a bright future for Israel in these conditions, all the weapons in the world can’t defeat hate from 450 millions Arabians. Beside, people don’t want Israel military to fail, they want it to stop killing 80% civilians and 50% women and children. That’s completely different.

by leoh 1y ago

bigyabai 1y ago

Short-term, Israel should have pumped the breaks on disproportionate response. Dahiya doctrine never worked, and now Hamas has successfully leveraged it to win (undue!) international credibility. If a policy of de-escalation can be honored, you can lay the groundwork for a medium/long term solution that respects all sovereign parties.

velcrohn 1y ago
What does de-escalation look like in Gaza? Allowing Hamas to regroup and re-arm, so they can repeat October 7 as they publicly promised to do?
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  A newly created throwaway account, repeating the prop of a genocidal military. Surely you can do better than this.
  - leoh 1y ago
    Actually it's quite a good point, because no one in this thread has suggested a sustainable long-term solution for this mutual madness. Hamas without question wishes for the total destruction of Israel.
    - amdivia 1y ago
      Define the destruction of Israel as Hamas sees it, because I think alot of details are getting lost there, and many assumptions are made within it
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        The Hamas charter states that their goal, and the responsibility of every Muslim, is Islam, and Islam must obliterate the Zionist state.
        zelphirkalt 1y ago
        Zionist state - So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Maybe such a state should disappear and a sane state appear in its stead. It may be that Hamas has a different understanding of that, but I think, that this religious fanatics state thing is no good for Israel as a country anyway. It would do them good to get rid of that ideological baggage.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        > So that is the state, that thinks, that the land is god given theirs, right? Though there does exist a small religious minority that does claim the holy land to belong to Jews as it was given by God, I only know one such person. Most Israelis feel that Israel should be a Jewish state because we earned the land in the same fashion as almost every other nation on Earth, and certainly in the same fashion as ever other nation in the Middle East. But I'll tell you who does think that certain land can only belong to people of a specific race. People who call the holy land "Palestinian land". The invention of that term was, as are many of the anti-Jewish arguments, an inversion of the Jewish use of "God -given land". And just as you reject the idea when it is used by Jews, so would a logical person reject the idea when used by our enemies.
        zelphirkalt 1y ago
        Of course, I would reject the same idea from the other side, no question. To me personally, all this religious hogwash about who is the chosen people and whatever amounts to no credible argument either way. Too bad the religious fanatics don't use their religion to do good and be social and friendly instead. But that is a side issue, since Israel is the one taking territory away, that is not theirs to take. It is not theirs, due to people living in that land and having lived there for many generations. Then armed settler gangs supported by the IDF violently hunt Palestinians out of their homes and plundering them. That's not all of it, there are even cases of murder without prosecution. So the point is the perpetrator, whether it is one side or the other, needs to stop, be put back into their internationally recognized borders, and we need to do what we can to make the perpetrator stay there.
    - zelphirkalt 1y ago
      The starting points are not so difficult to come up with: (1) Stop of all armed offensives. (2) Complete dismantling of genocidal and corrupt government. Netanyahu and his gang in front of international courts, and then afterwards additionally in front of an Israeli court. (3) Partial disarming of Israel, to restore a balance in the region, and keeping them from attacking more countries. Defensive weapons they may all keep, maybe even get more, but it really needs to be defensive stuff, for example to intercept missiles/rockets. Unfortunately, a lot of that stuff is needed more in Ukraine right now, which should take priority over Israeli needs. (4) Organization of elections. Israel needs to get back from authoritarianism to functioning democracy. This might be done with international help. Possibly reforms, that strengthen courts, so that a second Netanyahu is unlikely to happen again. (5) Long running rebuilding projects in at least Gaza, if not more countries, financed by Israel. (6) Probably some international peacekeeping will be needed. This should not only include personnel from western countries. Must be from countries not directly involved and not from the US, or some EU countries, that supplied weapons used for the genocide. (7) Negotiations are on again, this time with a new government, and mostly about how Israel thinks to aim for a peaceful future, in which it gives back illegally annexed territories, including, of course, illegal settlements in the west bank. This also includes all the illegally taken or occupied territory since founding, back to internationally recognized borders. That's mostly the Israeli side of things. Of course Hamas will also have to make concessions. For example there could also be disarming of Hamas, where this is the price to pay for release of prisoners and a portion of the illegally occupied territories by Israel. Hamas shouldn't be helpless, but also shouldn't be able to launch new significant offensives. There are many things, that can be done, and they are not difficult to see. They are difficult to execute in the current climate, where the powerful country has an authoritarian leadership, that is unwilling to compromise.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    GP wasn't me, but it's a great question. What does de-escalation look like in Gaza? Allowing Hamas to regroup and re-arm, so they can repeat October 7 as they publicly promised to do?

buyucu 1y ago

[flagged]

MagicMoonlight 1y ago
[flagged]
- vFunct 1y ago
  The best part is the anti-Hamas crowd will always claim Hamas raped women on October 7, but will conveniently leave out basic details, like the names of any alleged rape victims that were confirmed to have been raped.
  - leoh 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - peanuty1 1y ago
      There is nothing anti-semitic about what the parent poster said. Any criticism of Israelis is anti-semitic according to Israel.
      - leoh 1y ago
        So a few Arabs from Gaza kind of just hung out and went home. And Israel retaliated. Got it.
      - otterley 1y ago
        It’s not the criticism itself that is anti-Semitic. There’s plenty of criticism of Israeli actions and politics that don’t come across that way. But you can tell who’s anti-Semitic by they way are attracted like moths to a light bulb to any story that has some connection (regardless of how distant that connection is) to Jews or Israel to get on a soapbox about how bad Israel is. And when confronted with accusations of their anti-Semitism, they rarely deny it. Instead, like you, they try to turn it around on the accuser. It’s similar to the way you can tell who’s simply angry at his wife over a recent spat, and who’s a misogynist.

aucisson_masque 1y ago

You are misinterpreting the facts. Israel bombing Qatar for instance is only going to bring them more hate from Arabians, they could have fought back on the hamas while maintaining peace with the rest of the Arab world. There was an alliance in 2020 between Israel and UAE United Arab Emirates. No need to say that it’s not the most promising alliance anymore. Other countries that were neutral on Israel see their arabian population utterly hate Israel so they have to adapt and behave consequently. They manage to unite the whole Arab front against them when they should have played on their division. This is really a bad plan on long term. Despite what trump is saying, Iran nuclear weapon is very close. They failed on that matter too although there was a real opportunity with the agreement during Obama. I don’t see a bright future for Israel in these conditions, all the weapons in the world can’t defeat hate from 450 millions Arabians. Beside, people don’t want Israel military to fail, they want it to stop killing 80% civilians and 50% women and children. That’s completely different.