3 ms·

Tesla's 'self-driving' software fails at train crossings

27 points by Veserv 1y ago

BinaryIgor 1y ago
I sometimes wonder whether we will ever solve all edge cases like the one described here; maybe, autonomous driving will always remain semi and almost there, but never quite fully
- dotcoma 1y ago
  Not a fan of self-driving cars (nor of cars in general), but isn't Waymo quite a bit ahead of Tesla?
  - bediger4000 1y ago
    You're missing the ELOphaNt in the room.
- Zigurd 1y ago
  Fully enough for SFO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45264562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45264562 And Nashville: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45275415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45275415 Waymo actually works, and is likely to be at or near breakeven financially.
  - yorwba 1y ago
    Waymo uses remote operators to resolve situations that the car can't handle on its own (maybe that includes train crossings), so it doesn't need to be fully self-driving: https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response/ https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response/ The SFO permit also involves an initial phase using human safety drivers in the car: https://www.sf.gov/news-mayor-lurie-takes-key-step-toward-launching-waymo-at-sfo https://www.sf.gov/news-mayor-lurie-takes-key-step-toward-la... Waymo actually works because they don't insist on automating what they cannot automate safely yet.
    - Zigurd 1y ago
      Nobody hasn't got remote operators. The difference is whether there are a few enough of them for the fleet that scaling service areas doesn't break the bank.
      - yorwba 1y ago
        Does Tesla have remote operators for their "FSD" cars sold to private individuals? That would be news to me.
        Zigurd 1y ago
        FSD for private cars requires you to be the monitor. Not remotely. But sitting right there in the driver's seat with your eyes being monitored for attention. Tesla Robo taxis have remote monitors and have a safety driver, either in the passenger seat or in the driver's seat. I've seen it suggested that Tesla remotely monitors demo rides. But they don't officially say so.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  This doesn't seem like that much of an edge-case. Level crossings are not exactly some weird exotic rarely-seen thing, and you'd think they'd actually be relatively easy compared to normal traffic junctions; they're clearly marked on the maps, and they have big obvious flashing red lights.
duxup 1y ago
I'm sure it's more complicated than it seems (or maybe not), but that video is pretty damning. It's not like something is blocking the car's view, the lights and crossing bars are very visible. Car just doesn't notice / keeps going.
- jerlam 1y ago
  I'm trying to understand if there is a situation where driving into a red and white stripe with flashing lights on it is correct. Does the Tesla think that because there isn't anything below the crossing arm, that the arm is actually farther away? Or it looks vaguely similar to the back of a trailer, but not enough so that is ignored?
  - duxup 1y ago
    Yeah I'm wondering the same, is the just ... baseline obstacle avoidance somehow being bypassed or failing? Those arms are right there. It's very strange. Even if it doesn't see it as a RR crossing, there's arms right there.
  - Doxin 1y ago
    As far as I can tell from previous failures, teslas will only attempt to avoid obstacles they recognize. How anyone could set up a self driving system like that and think it's a good idea is beyond me.
quantified 1y ago
Still, since "full self-driving" is allowed to mean "not at all full self-driving" by our laws and courts, the driver is responsible for any accidents here.
FireBeyond 1y ago
Doesn't surprise me, yes, things have evolved, but 18 months ago in Pennsylvania, watching Tesla show a train crossing as an erratic conga line of trucks and an equally erratic looking traffic light.
- nrds 1y ago
  You're talking about the visualization app. This has almost nothing to do with FSD besides being fed by the same cameras and maybe some similar preprocessing.
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    So you're telling me that the way it depicts traffic signals on screen, and the way it reacts to traffic signals, or alerts you, are completely independent? Yeah, I fail to see any issue there. Like the car attempting to drive through the boomgate...
SergeyKa 1y ago
Elon: buys some TSLA TSLA: wheeeee!!!! Shorts: oh sh!t, damage control now! Opinion piece writer: here, thx for the dough! NBCs and Reuters: posted, thx for the dough! HNs and Reddits: thx for engagement! Nothing newsworthy has actually happened, we're just feeding the trolls in shorts, and sending the clicks to justify the dough.

27 points by Veserv 1y ago

I sometimes wonder whether we will ever solve all edge cases like the one described here; maybe, autonomous driving will always remain semi and almost there, but never quite fully

dotcoma 1y ago
Not a fan of self-driving cars (nor of cars in general), but isn't Waymo quite a bit ahead of Tesla?
- bediger4000 1y ago
  You're missing the ELOphaNt in the room.
Zigurd 1y ago
Fully enough for SFO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45264562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45264562 And Nashville: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45275415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45275415 Waymo actually works, and is likely to be at or near breakeven financially.
- yorwba 1y ago
  Waymo uses remote operators to resolve situations that the car can't handle on its own (maybe that includes train crossings), so it doesn't need to be fully self-driving: https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response/ https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response/ The SFO permit also involves an initial phase using human safety drivers in the car: https://www.sf.gov/news-mayor-lurie-takes-key-step-toward-launching-waymo-at-sfo https://www.sf.gov/news-mayor-lurie-takes-key-step-toward-la... Waymo actually works because they don't insist on automating what they cannot automate safely yet.
  - Zigurd 1y ago
    Nobody hasn't got remote operators. The difference is whether there are a few enough of them for the fleet that scaling service areas doesn't break the bank.
    - yorwba 1y ago
      Does Tesla have remote operators for their "FSD" cars sold to private individuals? That would be news to me.
      - Zigurd 1y ago
        FSD for private cars requires you to be the monitor. Not remotely. But sitting right there in the driver's seat with your eyes being monitored for attention. Tesla Robo taxis have remote monitors and have a safety driver, either in the passenger seat or in the driver's seat. I've seen it suggested that Tesla remotely monitors demo rides. But they don't officially say so.
rsynnott 1y ago
This doesn't seem like that much of an edge-case. Level crossings are not exactly some weird exotic rarely-seen thing, and you'd think they'd actually be relatively easy compared to normal traffic junctions; they're clearly marked on the maps, and they have big obvious flashing red lights.

duxup 1y ago

I'm sure it's more complicated than it seems (or maybe not), but that video is pretty damning. It's not like something is blocking the car's view, the lights and crossing bars are very visible. Car just doesn't notice / keeps going.

jerlam 1y ago
I'm trying to understand if there is a situation where driving into a red and white stripe with flashing lights on it is correct. Does the Tesla think that because there isn't anything below the crossing arm, that the arm is actually farther away? Or it looks vaguely similar to the back of a trailer, but not enough so that is ignored?
- duxup 1y ago
  Yeah I'm wondering the same, is the just ... baseline obstacle avoidance somehow being bypassed or failing? Those arms are right there. It's very strange. Even if it doesn't see it as a RR crossing, there's arms right there.
- Doxin 1y ago
  As far as I can tell from previous failures, teslas will only attempt to avoid obstacles they recognize. How anyone could set up a self driving system like that and think it's a good idea is beyond me.

quantified 1y ago

Still, since "full self-driving" is allowed to mean "not at all full self-driving" by our laws and courts, the driver is responsible for any accidents here.

FireBeyond 1y ago

Doesn't surprise me, yes, things have evolved, but 18 months ago in Pennsylvania, watching Tesla show a train crossing as an erratic conga line of trucks and an equally erratic looking traffic light.

nrds 1y ago
You're talking about the visualization app. This has almost nothing to do with FSD besides being fed by the same cameras and maybe some similar preprocessing.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  So you're telling me that the way it depicts traffic signals on screen, and the way it reacts to traffic signals, or alerts you, are completely independent? Yeah, I fail to see any issue there. Like the car attempting to drive through the boomgate...

SergeyKa 1y ago

Elon: buys some TSLA TSLA: wheeeee!!!! Shorts: oh sh!t, damage control now! Opinion piece writer: here, thx for the dough! NBCs and Reuters: posted, thx for the dough! HNs and Reddits: thx for engagement! Nothing newsworthy has actually happened, we're just feeding the trolls in shorts, and sending the clicks to justify the dough.