4 ms·

>The people are never to blame. Hold here. They aren't. Immediately letting 'the people' off the hook for blame is a somewhat modern fallacy. These people demo

by 1970-01-01 1y ago

>The people are never to blame. Hold here. They aren't. Immediately letting 'the people' off the hook for blame is a somewhat modern fallacy. These people democratically choose the leader. You can't just 'not blame' them, as a group, for an eventual failure if they consistently choose poorly.

johnisgood 1y ago
In their defense, they can only choose between this or that, and both of them are quite shitty, in the US.
- thepryz 1y ago
  Sorry, but I find this to be an excuse. Voters can hold elected officials accountable by not re-electing politicians, not donating to them, and supporting candidates that will better represent them. The problem is that most citizens are not civically knowledgeable or engaged which is why we continue to have to choose the lesser of two evils that are often the same in policy.
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    The choice is between Anti Consumer Jerk #1 and Slightly Less Of An Anti Consumer Jerk #2. One of them is going to be in charge. There is no choice to simply not elect someone, and writing in a non-jerk is unrealistic.
    - thepryz 1y ago
      A civically informed and engaged population also has a choice to organize against the political establishment, run their own candidates, or create political action committees. The PAC can endorse and otherwise work to support a better candidate to win a primary (See David Hogg's Leaders We Deserve PAC), or if you don't mind getting a little dirty, the PAC can raise enough money to buy the politicians and bend them to their will. I do admit that this is more difficult for Presidential elections, but certainly this can be effective at the state and local level and arguably could be used effectively within Congress if done right. In fact, we might be seeing some of that begin to happen in states like Maine given the response Graham Platner has already received. Kat Abughazaleh is another example. She's a progressive who is taking a somewhat novel approach to her campaign in Chicago. And of course you have Zohran Mamdani in NYC mayoral race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani
- LadyCailin 1y ago
  Two thirds of American voters took the worst of the options though - either voted for Trump, or didn’t vote at all. It’s a majority problem, and I would totally excuse even third party voters here. But a large chunk of Americans couldn’t even be assed to do the bare minimum!
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    But we love democracy, right? This is democracy.
- cruano 1y ago
  > both of them are quite shitty That's equally as useful as saying jaywalking and mass murder are both crimes
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- happytoexplain 1y ago
  Shitty in this specific context, arguably.
- red-iron-pine 1y ago
  yeah one wanted a public healthcare option, and the other wants to annihilate the global economy and become a dictator. but they're both the same (rolls eyes)
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    Cherry picking at its finest. Do not worry, you live in a democracy. ;)
happytoexplain 1y ago
Yes, but the author doesn't explain why they don't blame citizens. It's reasonable to make the argument that citizens have very little power to fix certain problems. E.g. I haven't had the option of a candidate willing to fix (actually fix) this problem, at any level of government, in my lifetime.
gchamonlive 1y ago
I'd start my response to your comment with Cambridge Analytica and go from there to all the ways that the people can be manipulated into a fabricated consensus by the powers that be.
- fidotron 1y ago
  > Cambridge Analytica Another American moral failure! Hang on . . .
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595338116/what-did-cambridge-analytica-do-during-the-2016-election https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595338116/what-did-cambridge-... And if you are still fixated on Reason I'd suggest you click on the links in the article
    - fidotron 1y ago
      Evil Brits messing around in the US! Let's boycott the US, that will teach them! Your entire mentality is stuck in the third world: wanting to ally yourself to ever larger bullies without ever taking personal responsibility to stand up against the actual problem entities yourself because that is too hard.
      - gchamonlive 1y ago
        > wanting to ally yourself to ever larger bullies Sorry if I'm missing something, but which bullies am I willing to align myself to? > without ever taking personal responsibility to stand up against the actual problem entities yourself because that is too hard Tell me more about how we're not able to take care of ourselves? > Your entire mentality is stuck in the third world Typical from a colonialist mentality to think I terms of first and third worlds, nomenclature that doesn't hold anymore I the current geopolitical landscape. > Evil Brits messing around in the US! Let's boycott the US, that will teach them! People that have zero arguments normally tend to default to mockery and irony in order to attack the messenger since dismantling the arguments takes effort. Thanks, it was quite entertaining to read your trolling comments. Keep them coming.

johnisgood 1y ago

In their defense, they can only choose between this or that, and both of them are quite shitty, in the US.

thepryz 1y ago
Sorry, but I find this to be an excuse. Voters can hold elected officials accountable by not re-electing politicians, not donating to them, and supporting candidates that will better represent them. The problem is that most citizens are not civically knowledgeable or engaged which is why we continue to have to choose the lesser of two evils that are often the same in policy.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  The choice is between Anti Consumer Jerk #1 and Slightly Less Of An Anti Consumer Jerk #2. One of them is going to be in charge. There is no choice to simply not elect someone, and writing in a non-jerk is unrealistic.
  - thepryz 1y ago
    A civically informed and engaged population also has a choice to organize against the political establishment, run their own candidates, or create political action committees. The PAC can endorse and otherwise work to support a better candidate to win a primary (See David Hogg's Leaders We Deserve PAC), or if you don't mind getting a little dirty, the PAC can raise enough money to buy the politicians and bend them to their will. I do admit that this is more difficult for Presidential elections, but certainly this can be effective at the state and local level and arguably could be used effectively within Congress if done right. In fact, we might be seeing some of that begin to happen in states like Maine given the response Graham Platner has already received. Kat Abughazaleh is another example. She's a progressive who is taking a somewhat novel approach to her campaign in Chicago. And of course you have Zohran Mamdani in NYC mayoral race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani
LadyCailin 1y ago
Two thirds of American voters took the worst of the options though - either voted for Trump, or didn’t vote at all. It’s a majority problem, and I would totally excuse even third party voters here. But a large chunk of Americans couldn’t even be assed to do the bare minimum!
- johnisgood 1y ago
  But we love democracy, right? This is democracy.
cruano 1y ago
> both of them are quite shitty That's equally as useful as saying jaywalking and mass murder are both crimes
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
happytoexplain 1y ago
Shitty in this specific context, arguably.
red-iron-pine 1y ago
yeah one wanted a public healthcare option, and the other wants to annihilate the global economy and become a dictator. but they're both the same (rolls eyes)
- johnisgood 1y ago
  Cherry picking at its finest. Do not worry, you live in a democracy. ;)

happytoexplain 1y ago

Yes, but the author doesn't explain why they don't blame citizens. It's reasonable to make the argument that citizens have very little power to fix certain problems. E.g. I haven't had the option of a candidate willing to fix (actually fix) this problem, at any level of government, in my lifetime.

gchamonlive 1y ago

I'd start my response to your comment with Cambridge Analytica and go from there to all the ways that the people can be manipulated into a fabricated consensus by the powers that be.

fidotron 1y ago
> Cambridge Analytica Another American moral failure! Hang on . . .
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595338116/what-did-cambridge-analytica-do-during-the-2016-election https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595338116/what-did-cambridge-... And if you are still fixated on Reason I'd suggest you click on the links in the article
  - fidotron 1y ago
    Evil Brits messing around in the US! Let's boycott the US, that will teach them! Your entire mentality is stuck in the third world: wanting to ally yourself to ever larger bullies without ever taking personal responsibility to stand up against the actual problem entities yourself because that is too hard.
    - gchamonlive 1y ago
      > wanting to ally yourself to ever larger bullies Sorry if I'm missing something, but which bullies am I willing to align myself to? > without ever taking personal responsibility to stand up against the actual problem entities yourself because that is too hard Tell me more about how we're not able to take care of ourselves? > Your entire mentality is stuck in the third world Typical from a colonialist mentality to think I terms of first and third worlds, nomenclature that doesn't hold anymore I the current geopolitical landscape. > Evil Brits messing around in the US! Let's boycott the US, that will teach them! People that have zero arguments normally tend to default to mockery and irony in order to attack the messenger since dismantling the arguments takes effort. Thanks, it was quite entertaining to read your trolling comments. Keep them coming.