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No matter how you experience it, perfectionism always traces back to a lack of internal self-acceptance. Not everything that sounds Deeply Wise is actually tru

by Eliezer 18y ago

No matter how you experience it, perfectionism always traces back to a lack of internal self-acceptance. Not everything that sounds Deeply Wise is actually true. Try doing math with imperfect proofs and see how long it takes to arrive at a contradiction. Ariane 5 blew up thanks to a floating-point error. Some things in life require perfection. The error lies in applying the same standard to things that don't.

kirse 18y ago
I can't tell if this is a joke or serious. Either way, what you're saying here is that someone who does a math problem the right way is a perfectionist. That's correct in one sense of the word, however, under this specific context where we are discussing "perfectionism", doing a math problem the right way does not make one a "perfectionist".
- yters 18y ago
  Making sure absolutely every ambiguity is eliminated from a mathematical proof is perfectionism. That can be quite hard. There are a large number of things in our modern world where not shooting for perfection can be disastrous. Space flight is one area, finances is another, weapons targeting a third, etc. Great art is also known by its perfection.
  - jfarmer 18y ago
    "Making sure absolutely every ambiguity is eliminated from a mathematical proof is perfectionism." Oh, I don't know about that. Mathematicians obsess over the "beauty" of a proof as much as hackers/programmers obsess over the "beauty" of their code. For some proving it the ugly way is insufficient.
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    Space flight is one area [where not shooting for perfection can be disastrous]. No. Perfectionism has been the single leading cause of every spaceflight "disaster". http://www.dunnspace.com/leo_on_the_cheap.htm http://www.dunnspace.com/leo_on_the_cheap.htm http://www.dunnspace.com/leo-7-10.pdf http://www.dunnspace.com/leo-7-10.pdf A final area needing cultural change to achieve lower launch costs is one that cuts across virtually every part of government and the aerospace industry that is involved in space system development and operations. [...] Fear of failure, and the consequent lack of tolerance for it, dominates the thinking of many engineers and aerospace managers to the point of having major effect on the design and operation of space systems. [...] Today’s space leaders in this country need to recapture the spirit and vision of bold adventurism and risk acceptance to open avenues for reductions in space system costs and new space program starts. This will require strong courage by space managers as well as politicians to weather the storms of inevitable failures and continue to press forward. To help ameliorate the emotional, political, and financial impact of failures, the launching of cargo and the launching of people should be forever separated as soon as possible. As the cost of space launch comes down, launches (at least those that are unmanned) will become more routine and more plentiful. This frequent and common unmanned launch activity will allow any occasional accident that does occur to be treated with no more significance than any other accident that does not involve a loss of life or injury to people, or damage to the environment.
    - yters 18y ago
      Very good point, I stand corrected. I will also post it to HN, if you don't mind. Mainly to save it for myself.
      - gravitycop 18y ago
        Thank you. I don't mind. I believe weekday mornings are the best times to post (the times when posts are most likely to make it to the front page and stick). I'm not sure of the sweet spot, but I think it's ~4-8 AM Pacific time. (I wonder if anyone has come up with HN posting-time statistics yet.)
DenisM 18y ago
I think there is a distinction to be made between perfection and adequacy for a given task. The proper solution for Arian 5 problem lies in adequately accurate math, not in math of infinite precision (perfection).
arakyd 18y ago
Perfectionists can apply higher standards than mathematicians - mathematics does not require anything like perfection. A mathematician sets the level of rigor he needs to prove an interesting theorem. A perfectionist mathematician would never prove anything, because he would never be able to convince himself that he had the right axioms. The same thing goes for engineers - a perfectionist would never finish the blueprints for the rocket. It doesn't take a perfectionist to catch a floating point error, it just takes experience, good people, and due diligence. That's hard, but it ain't even close to perfection.
kragen 18y ago
Ariane 5 blew up thanks to an unhandled integer overflow exception, not anything related to floating point.

by Eliezer 18y ago

kirse 18y ago

I can't tell if this is a joke or serious. Either way, what you're saying here is that someone who does a math problem the right way is a perfectionist. That's correct in one sense of the word, however, under this specific context where we are discussing "perfectionism", doing a math problem the right way does not make one a "perfectionist".

yters 18y ago
Making sure absolutely every ambiguity is eliminated from a mathematical proof is perfectionism. That can be quite hard. There are a large number of things in our modern world where not shooting for perfection can be disastrous. Space flight is one area, finances is another, weapons targeting a third, etc. Great art is also known by its perfection.
- jfarmer 18y ago
  "Making sure absolutely every ambiguity is eliminated from a mathematical proof is perfectionism." Oh, I don't know about that. Mathematicians obsess over the "beauty" of a proof as much as hackers/programmers obsess over the "beauty" of their code. For some proving it the ugly way is insufficient.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  Space flight is one area [where not shooting for perfection can be disastrous]. No. Perfectionism has been the single leading cause of every spaceflight "disaster". http://www.dunnspace.com/leo_on_the_cheap.htm http://www.dunnspace.com/leo_on_the_cheap.htm http://www.dunnspace.com/leo-7-10.pdf http://www.dunnspace.com/leo-7-10.pdf A final area needing cultural change to achieve lower launch costs is one that cuts across virtually every part of government and the aerospace industry that is involved in space system development and operations. [...] Fear of failure, and the consequent lack of tolerance for it, dominates the thinking of many engineers and aerospace managers to the point of having major effect on the design and operation of space systems. [...] Today’s space leaders in this country need to recapture the spirit and vision of bold adventurism and risk acceptance to open avenues for reductions in space system costs and new space program starts. This will require strong courage by space managers as well as politicians to weather the storms of inevitable failures and continue to press forward. To help ameliorate the emotional, political, and financial impact of failures, the launching of cargo and the launching of people should be forever separated as soon as possible. As the cost of space launch comes down, launches (at least those that are unmanned) will become more routine and more plentiful. This frequent and common unmanned launch activity will allow any occasional accident that does occur to be treated with no more significance than any other accident that does not involve a loss of life or injury to people, or damage to the environment.
  - yters 18y ago
    Very good point, I stand corrected. I will also post it to HN, if you don't mind. Mainly to save it for myself.
    - gravitycop 18y ago
      Thank you. I don't mind. I believe weekday mornings are the best times to post (the times when posts are most likely to make it to the front page and stick). I'm not sure of the sweet spot, but I think it's ~4-8 AM Pacific time. (I wonder if anyone has come up with HN posting-time statistics yet.)

DenisM 18y ago

I think there is a distinction to be made between perfection and adequacy for a given task. The proper solution for Arian 5 problem lies in adequately accurate math, not in math of infinite precision (perfection).

arakyd 18y ago

Perfectionists can apply higher standards than mathematicians - mathematics does not require anything like perfection. A mathematician sets the level of rigor he needs to prove an interesting theorem. A perfectionist mathematician would never prove anything, because he would never be able to convince himself that he had the right axioms. The same thing goes for engineers - a perfectionist would never finish the blueprints for the rocket. It doesn't take a perfectionist to catch a floating point error, it just takes experience, good people, and due diligence. That's hard, but it ain't even close to perfection.

kragen 18y ago

Ariane 5 blew up thanks to an unhandled integer overflow exception, not anything related to floating point.