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I didn't think this was even possible. Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? I was under the impression that the principle o

I didn't think this was even possible. Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. If that's not the case, the danger isn't limited to just Germany. With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them working together to pass an EU law that makes everything fair game.

p_l 1y ago
Privacy of communications is usually a normal law not constitutional principle, so slots perfectly fine without any supremacy issues between constitution and EU law.
- gpderetta 1y ago
  It is indeed a constitutional principle in many EU countries. It is also part of the Treaty of Lisbon via the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is the closest thing to a constitutional level law for the EU. Not that this has ever stopped anybody.
  - p_l 1y ago
    I think the issue lies with how do you define "privacy of communications is respected". Because that would technically make any present day wiretap illegal too. So the detail is written in normal law tract...
aleph_minus_one 1y ago
> Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? Sometimes yes. > I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. What are a country's fundamental constitutional rights can be "dynamically adjusted" depending on the political wishes. :-( > With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them working together to pass an EU law that makes everything fair game. There is a reason why more and more EU-skeptical movements gain traction in various EU countries.
impossiblefork 1y ago
No. The EU isn't a federation, there's no supremacy class. The member countries are sovereign and obviously can't go against their constitutions or basic laws.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- philipallstar 1y ago
  > there's no supremacy class What does "supremacy class" mean?
  - teeklp 1y ago
    I assume he means something like "supremacy clause."
  - impossiblefork 1y ago
    I mean supremacy clause, a US law with which I made an analogy.
- patates 1y ago
  I'm completely out of my depth but this is not what I understand after reading here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/primacy-of-eu-law-precedence-supremacy.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/primacy-...
- nickslaughter02 1y ago
  > The member countries are sovereign and obviously can't go against their constitutions or basic laws False. > The principle was derived from an interpretation of the European Court of Justice, which ruled that European law has priority over any contravening national law, including the constitution of a member state itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law
  - impossiblefork 1y ago
piltdownman 1y ago
For the most part yes, with caveats. Specifically for Ireland, we are the only EU member state where the Constitution ordains a referendum to validate ratification of any amendments that result in a transfer of sovereignty to the European Union; such as the Nice Treaty which we can prevent from passing on an EU level. Ratification of other Treaties without the sovereignty component is decided upon by the states' national parliaments in all other member states. Ireland, Netherlands, and Luxembourg also have veto powers when it comes to EU wide regulations. That's why Article 116 exists. In the particular, the Seville Declaration recognised the right of Ireland (and all other member states) to decide in accordance with National Constitutions and laws whether and how to participate in any activities under the European Security and Defence Policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville_Declarations_on_the_Treaty_of_Nice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville_Declarations_on_the_Tr... It's enshrined in German Case Law as 'Identitätsvorbehalt'. https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/das-europalexikon/309454/ultra-vires-und-identitaetskontrolle/ https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/das-europalexikon/30945... The Polish constitutional court has also ruled that EU law does not supercede national law. Thus, primacy of EU law is wholly rejected in Poland. https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-eu-laws-clash-with-country-s-constitution https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-...

p_l 1y ago

Privacy of communications is usually a normal law not constitutional principle, so slots perfectly fine without any supremacy issues between constitution and EU law.

gpderetta 1y ago
It is indeed a constitutional principle in many EU countries. It is also part of the Treaty of Lisbon via the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is the closest thing to a constitutional level law for the EU. Not that this has ever stopped anybody.
- p_l 1y ago
  I think the issue lies with how do you define "privacy of communications is respected". Because that would technically make any present day wiretap illegal too. So the detail is written in normal law tract...

aleph_minus_one 1y ago

> Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? Sometimes yes. > I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. What are a country's fundamental constitutional rights can be "dynamically adjusted" depending on the political wishes. :-( > With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them working together to pass an EU law that makes everything fair game. There is a reason why more and more EU-skeptical movements gain traction in various EU countries.

impossiblefork 1y ago

No. The EU isn't a federation, there's no supremacy class. The member countries are sovereign and obviously can't go against their constitutions or basic laws.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
philipallstar 1y ago
> there's no supremacy class What does "supremacy class" mean?
- teeklp 1y ago
  I assume he means something like "supremacy clause."
- impossiblefork 1y ago
  I mean supremacy clause, a US law with which I made an analogy.
patates 1y ago
I'm completely out of my depth but this is not what I understand after reading here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/primacy-of-eu-law-precedence-supremacy.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/primacy-...
nickslaughter02 1y ago
> The member countries are sovereign and obviously can't go against their constitutions or basic laws False. > The principle was derived from an interpretation of the European Court of Justice, which ruled that European law has priority over any contravening national law, including the constitution of a member state itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law
- impossiblefork 1y ago

piltdownman 1y ago

For the most part yes, with caveats. Specifically for Ireland, we are the only EU member state where the Constitution ordains a referendum to validate ratification of any amendments that result in a transfer of sovereignty to the European Union; such as the Nice Treaty which we can prevent from passing on an EU level. Ratification of other Treaties without the sovereignty component is decided upon by the states' national parliaments in all other member states. Ireland, Netherlands, and Luxembourg also have veto powers when it comes to EU wide regulations. That's why Article 116 exists. In the particular, the Seville Declaration recognised the right of Ireland (and all other member states) to decide in accordance with National Constitutions and laws whether and how to participate in any activities under the European Security and Defence Policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville_Declarations_on_the_Treaty_of_Nice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville_Declarations_on_the_Tr... It's enshrined in German Case Law as 'Identitätsvorbehalt'. https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/das-europalexikon/309454/ultra-vires-und-identitaetskontrolle/ https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/das-europalexikon/30945... The Polish constitutional court has also ruled that EU law does not supercede national law. Thus, primacy of EU law is wholly rejected in Poland. https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-eu-laws-clash-with-country-s-constitution https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-...