5 ms·

I can't believe with our history involving the Third Reich and the Stasi that we aren't staunchly opposed. Especially with the impending political upheaval when

I can't believe with our history involving the Third Reich and the Stasi that we aren't staunchly opposed. Especially with the impending political upheaval when AfD finally gets enough votes to form a ruling government. Our politicians are insanely shortsighted and somehow don't understand the danger they're enabling.

varispeed 1y ago
> Third Reich and the Stasi It looks like German population actually enjoys these things. Third time lucky? edit: how would you explain lack of protests or that the authors of proposal don't face criminal investigation? After all this is authoritarian regime refresh, just without the labels.
- WinstonSmith84 1y ago
  Yes, Germany is very hypocritical, a lot of people have short memories. On another hand, Germany is on the spotlight because it's the country which is going to decide at the end. Less critics about the usual suspects who love to restrict personal freedoms like France, Spain, Italy ..
  - dmix 1y ago
    Spain is particularly bad for meddling with the internet, mostly with regards to piracy. While Germany has arrested many thousands of people for online speech, similar to the UK. But the UK gets much more media attention over it. > Battling far-right extremism, Germany has gone further than any other Western democracy to prosecute individuals for what they say online, testing the limits of free speech on the internet. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/technology/germany-internet-speech-arrest.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/technology/germany-intern...
    - varispeed 1y ago
      Chat Control is extremist - a terrorist attack on civil liberties. If Germany were serious about its commitments, the architects behind this assault would already be facing prosecution. Instead, authorities focus on token speech prosecutions while leaving the machinery of mass surveillance untouched. The optics are chilling: yesterday it was door-to-door searches under authoritarian regimes; today it’s device-to-device searches for wrongthink. That isn’t protecting against extremism - it’s repeating it with new tools.
      - dmix 1y ago
        Yes the arguments for free speech and privacy are self-evident. People always think they can add conditions, as if those conditions won't perpetually expand to greater and greater areas. Or become a power given to dangerous individuals who form future governments.
patates 1y ago
I didn't think this was even possible. Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. If that's not the case, the danger isn't limited to just Germany. With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them working together to pass an EU law that makes everything fair game.
- p_l 1y ago
  Privacy of communications is usually a normal law not constitutional principle, so slots perfectly fine without any supremacy issues between constitution and EU law.
  - gpderetta 1y ago
    It is indeed a constitutional principle in many EU countries. It is also part of the Treaty of Lisbon via the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is the closest thing to a constitutional level law for the EU. Not that this has ever stopped anybody.
    - p_l 1y ago
      I think the issue lies with how do you define "privacy of communications is respected". Because that would technically make any present day wiretap illegal too. So the detail is written in normal law tract...
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? Sometimes yes. > I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. What are a country's fundamental constitutional rights can be "dynamically adjusted" depending on the political wishes. :-( > With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them working together to pass an EU law that makes everything fair game. There is a reason why more and more EU-skeptical movements gain traction in various EU countries.
DocTomoe 1y ago
You see, we the people are staunchly opposed. But the interests of our political leaders (we all know what 'leader' translates to) do not align with out interests. So ... The problem is that this is not a party issue. This is a leadership issue. Power corrupts. The only way out of his is a massive overhaul of the political system that makes 'professional politicians' a thing of the past.
- munksbeer 1y ago
  > You see, we the people are staunchly opposed. Doubtful. We on hackernews are staunchly opposed. Most regular people either support or don't care.
selfunaware 1y ago
AfD is under the watch of spionage agencies but somehow they are THE risk, not the legacy parties and bureaucracy.
- tgv 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - nickslaughter02 1y ago
    > It's not hard to imagine what they'll try to do, and chat-control will make it easier for them. Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) is against Chat Control. https://fightchatcontrol.eu/#delegates https://fightchatcontrol.eu/#delegates
    - eagleal 1y ago
      Most probably because they are not in power or leading the coalition at the moment. Similar positions were held by the once similar parties in Italy before they rose to prominence, and from once bigger parties trying to not vanquish. Power consolidation is a shared trait of every leading individual or group of people.
      - tgv 1y ago
        And because they fear it, for now. Opportunism at its finest.
    - croes 1y ago
      And the CDU was pro debt break while in opposition. Just look at the US, the whole free speech and hate speech is nonsense flipped when Trump came to power. The AfD is not any different. Just look at Höcke who determines the party's agenda.
  - selfunaware 1y ago
    [dead]
  - 1y ago
Stevvo 1y ago
You say this while Germany is actively supporting a genocide in Palestine. The world has really turned on its head.
jjani 1y ago
It's about as believable as a country with history involving the Third Reich and Stasi openly standing behind a country that the UN, and every relevant scholar on the subject, confirms is committing genocide. In other words, it's very believable. It is incredible how billions of hours have been spent on Vergangenheitsbewältigung, and nothing has been learnt. Potentially the best phenomenon in existence at showing that humanity is, after all, so much less intelligent than it believes it is - that even after such a destructive event and so much performative effort at analysis and learning, the key takeaway did not become part of the social psyche whatsoever.
croes 1y ago
What did you expect? People voted for the party that gave the previous coalition a hard time because of the debt brake but totally ignored it as soon they came into power.

varispeed 1y ago

> Third Reich and the Stasi It looks like German population actually enjoys these things. Third time lucky? edit: how would you explain lack of protests or that the authors of proposal don't face criminal investigation? After all this is authoritarian regime refresh, just without the labels.

WinstonSmith84 1y ago
Yes, Germany is very hypocritical, a lot of people have short memories. On another hand, Germany is on the spotlight because it's the country which is going to decide at the end. Less critics about the usual suspects who love to restrict personal freedoms like France, Spain, Italy ..
- dmix 1y ago
  Spain is particularly bad for meddling with the internet, mostly with regards to piracy. While Germany has arrested many thousands of people for online speech, similar to the UK. But the UK gets much more media attention over it. > Battling far-right extremism, Germany has gone further than any other Western democracy to prosecute individuals for what they say online, testing the limits of free speech on the internet. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/technology/germany-internet-speech-arrest.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/technology/germany-intern...
  - varispeed 1y ago
    Chat Control is extremist - a terrorist attack on civil liberties. If Germany were serious about its commitments, the architects behind this assault would already be facing prosecution. Instead, authorities focus on token speech prosecutions while leaving the machinery of mass surveillance untouched. The optics are chilling: yesterday it was door-to-door searches under authoritarian regimes; today it’s device-to-device searches for wrongthink. That isn’t protecting against extremism - it’s repeating it with new tools.
    - dmix 1y ago
      Yes the arguments for free speech and privacy are self-evident. People always think they can add conditions, as if those conditions won't perpetually expand to greater and greater areas. Or become a power given to dangerous individuals who form future governments.

patates 1y ago

I didn't think this was even possible. Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. If that's not the case, the danger isn't limited to just Germany. With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them working together to pass an EU law that makes everything fair game.

p_l 1y ago
Privacy of communications is usually a normal law not constitutional principle, so slots perfectly fine without any supremacy issues between constitution and EU law.
- gpderetta 1y ago
  It is indeed a constitutional principle in many EU countries. It is also part of the Treaty of Lisbon via the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is the closest thing to a constitutional level law for the EU. Not that this has ever stopped anybody.
  - p_l 1y ago
    I think the issue lies with how do you define "privacy of communications is respected". Because that would technically make any present day wiretap illegal too. So the detail is written in normal law tract...
aleph_minus_one 1y ago
> Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? Sometimes yes. > I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. What are a country's fundamental constitutional rights can be "dynamically adjusted" depending on the political wishes. :-( > With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them working together to pass an EU law that makes everything fair game. There is a reason why more and more EU-skeptical movements gain traction in various EU countries.

DocTomoe 1y ago

You see, we the people are staunchly opposed. But the interests of our political leaders (we all know what 'leader' translates to) do not align with out interests. So ... The problem is that this is not a party issue. This is a leadership issue. Power corrupts. The only way out of his is a massive overhaul of the political system that makes 'professional politicians' a thing of the past.

munksbeer 1y ago
> You see, we the people are staunchly opposed. Doubtful. We on hackernews are staunchly opposed. Most regular people either support or don't care.

selfunaware 1y ago

AfD is under the watch of spionage agencies but somehow they are THE risk, not the legacy parties and bureaucracy.

tgv 1y ago
[flagged]
- nickslaughter02 1y ago
  > It's not hard to imagine what they'll try to do, and chat-control will make it easier for them. Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) is against Chat Control. https://fightchatcontrol.eu/#delegates https://fightchatcontrol.eu/#delegates
  - eagleal 1y ago
    Most probably because they are not in power or leading the coalition at the moment. Similar positions were held by the once similar parties in Italy before they rose to prominence, and from once bigger parties trying to not vanquish. Power consolidation is a shared trait of every leading individual or group of people.
    - tgv 1y ago
      And because they fear it, for now. Opportunism at its finest.
  - croes 1y ago
    And the CDU was pro debt break while in opposition. Just look at the US, the whole free speech and hate speech is nonsense flipped when Trump came to power. The AfD is not any different. Just look at Höcke who determines the party's agenda.
- selfunaware 1y ago
  [dead]
- 1y ago

Stevvo 1y ago

You say this while Germany is actively supporting a genocide in Palestine. The world has really turned on its head.

jjani 1y ago

It's about as believable as a country with history involving the Third Reich and Stasi openly standing behind a country that the UN, and every relevant scholar on the subject, confirms is committing genocide. In other words, it's very believable. It is incredible how billions of hours have been spent on Vergangenheitsbewältigung, and nothing has been learnt. Potentially the best phenomenon in existence at showing that humanity is, after all, so much less intelligent than it believes it is - that even after such a destructive event and so much performative effort at analysis and learning, the key takeaway did not become part of the social psyche whatsoever.

croes 1y ago

What did you expect? People voted for the party that gave the previous coalition a hard time because of the debt brake but totally ignored it as soon they came into power.