5 ms·

Midnight commander is a great tool, although I think most younger users do not realize that we lost something along the way. Norton Commander was fantastically

by jwr 1y ago

Midnight commander is a great tool, although I think most younger users do not realize that we lost something along the way. Norton Commander was fantastically fast for common file operations not just because of the dual-pane design, but because of several things working together. Thoughtful design of software while thinking of hardware. To get the most out of it, you were supposed to use the numpad on your keyboard. And it should be the classic IBM PC numpad: large +, large 0, [num]/*- in the top row. Then, you wanted your function keys as a top row above your keyboard. Also, ESC was supposed to work immediately, not after a delay. I know many people think these things don't matter, because you can do everything with MC (and more), but I disagree. In this case, every fraction of a second matters. In the setup I described above, selecting all files in the current directory and moving them to the directory in the other pane is: one flick of the right hand (roll over + and Enter on the numpad), F6 with the left hand followed by another Enter immediately with the right hand. Now try to do that using the + that is on your = key and tell me it's the same thing.

nottorp 1y ago
Stuff is still there as long as you get a proper keyboard. Well, and monitor. If you're slouching over your laptop for extended periods of time, you have bigger problems than not being able to use numpad +...
eviks 1y ago
> every fraction of a second matters That was not true otherwise you wouldn't get stuck with the most unergonomic keys mandating moving your hands off their resting place. > selecting all files ... : one flick of the right hand The common Ctrl+A is better, no flick, just shifting a single thumb > F6 with the left hand followed by another Enter immediately with the right hand Or still same single hand Ctrl+Shift+X (or something even easier like maybe X, X)
- arevno 1y ago
  > the most unergonomic keys mandating moving your hands off their resting place Touch typists always have to get their dig in. I've been using vim for 5 years now and still use up/dn/lf/rt - it's easier to find in a tactile manner with the right keyboard and makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl. It's like 80ms travel, worst case. Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain.
  - eviks 1y ago
    > it's easier to find in a tactile manner It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier. > makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl > Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain Don't repeat the ancient hjkl mistake? What does your brain say to this simple counter? But more importantly, how does any of the numpad+/F6 nonsense follow from the fact that you can improve within the letters? > It's like 80ms travel I bet you didn't really time anything in real use, especially not the return timing to go back to the base, which will take you longer. But more importantly, go convince the "every fraction of a second matters" guy first. To me the lack of design logic/convenience is enough.
    - Kon5ole 1y ago
      >It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier You still need to find them unless your hand is glued to the resting keys and even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl, and even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim. (It can't be objectively measured of course but I am convinced anyone who can use vim without thinking has spent more time learning vim than they gained from using vim for other things) ;-)
      - eviks 1y ago
        > unless your hand is glued to the resting keys It is, the hint is in the name! > even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl So? Use the other resting keys, resting is key here, not their labels > even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim. Sorry, but your knowledge of the software world is too shallow, there are other apps that do that, specifically, file managers. Also you can use them universally in all apps with an extra modifier (right alt to do everything with a single hand), so > gained from using vim for other thing will literally include every single app that uses cursor keys
        1y ago
tremon 1y ago
"select all files" was just one key: * (actually, it was invert selection -- so assuming no files were selected beforehand). Pressing + and Enter would select one file, then try to edit/run the next one?
- Lex-2008 1y ago
  I believe pressing + should open "Select files" dialog prefilled to select all files (and dirs), pressing Enter confirms it. My Midnight Commander 4.8.33, however, remember previously entered mask, and if no mask was entered - then it defaults to selecting nothing :(
homebrewer 1y ago
> ESC was supposed to work immediately, not after a delay. It's not mc's fault, the Escape delay is added by the terminal emulator, to correctly handle escape sequences. You can probably configure it, but the most portable way that works everywhere is to simply press it twice quickly. It's only barely slower than the DOS way of doing it, and much faster than pressing and waiting for a second.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ptspts 1y ago
  This should have been solved in the last 30 years on Linux console, X terminal emulators and through SSH.
  - mmastrac 1y ago
    The kitty key protocol solves this, but your app and terminal need to support it. Many do.
  - tracker1 1y ago
    It's more of a "just in case" thing for the most part... the actual risk of an escape as part of a sequence showing up over TCP without the rest for over a fraction of a second today is highly unlikely. That said, so many systems seem to add a delay well over half a second like we're using dialup. I'd probably tune the delay to 100-200ms if I ever really felt it and have the option to change it.
- zahlman 1y ago
  In gnome-terminal, I have yet to succeed in inputting an escape sequence manually without the escape key being interpreted separately.
- couscouspie 1y ago
  I don't even understand the problem: ESC and the following key is generally just an alias for ALT+key.
javier_e06 1y ago
Ah Norton Commander. It sure throws me back to the Intel Pentium days. Today for that left versus right birds eye view, just-do-it, operations I use beyond compare.

by jwr 1y ago

nottorp 1y ago

Stuff is still there as long as you get a proper keyboard. Well, and monitor. If you're slouching over your laptop for extended periods of time, you have bigger problems than not being able to use numpad +...

eviks 1y ago

> every fraction of a second matters That was not true otherwise you wouldn't get stuck with the most unergonomic keys mandating moving your hands off their resting place. > selecting all files ... : one flick of the right hand The common Ctrl+A is better, no flick, just shifting a single thumb > F6 with the left hand followed by another Enter immediately with the right hand Or still same single hand Ctrl+Shift+X (or something even easier like maybe X, X)

arevno 1y ago
> the most unergonomic keys mandating moving your hands off their resting place Touch typists always have to get their dig in. I've been using vim for 5 years now and still use up/dn/lf/rt - it's easier to find in a tactile manner with the right keyboard and makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl. It's like 80ms travel, worst case. Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain.
- eviks 1y ago
  > it's easier to find in a tactile manner It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier. > makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl > Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain Don't repeat the ancient hjkl mistake? What does your brain say to this simple counter? But more importantly, how does any of the numpad+/F6 nonsense follow from the fact that you can improve within the letters? > It's like 80ms travel I bet you didn't really time anything in real use, especially not the return timing to go back to the base, which will take you longer. But more importantly, go convince the "every fraction of a second matters" guy first. To me the lack of design logic/convenience is enough.
  - Kon5ole 1y ago
    >It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier You still need to find them unless your hand is glued to the resting keys and even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl, and even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim. (It can't be objectively measured of course but I am convinced anyone who can use vim without thinking has spent more time learning vim than they gained from using vim for other things) ;-)
    - eviks 1y ago
      > unless your hand is glued to the resting keys It is, the hint is in the name! > even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl So? Use the other resting keys, resting is key here, not their labels > even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim. Sorry, but your knowledge of the software world is too shallow, there are other apps that do that, specifically, file managers. Also you can use them universally in all apps with an extra modifier (right alt to do everything with a single hand), so > gained from using vim for other thing will literally include every single app that uses cursor keys
      - 1y ago

tremon 1y ago

"select all files" was just one key: * (actually, it was invert selection -- so assuming no files were selected beforehand). Pressing + and Enter would select one file, then try to edit/run the next one?

Lex-2008 1y ago
I believe pressing + should open "Select files" dialog prefilled to select all files (and dirs), pressing Enter confirms it. My Midnight Commander 4.8.33, however, remember previously entered mask, and if no mask was entered - then it defaults to selecting nothing :(

homebrewer 1y ago

> ESC was supposed to work immediately, not after a delay. It's not mc's fault, the Escape delay is added by the terminal emulator, to correctly handle escape sequences. You can probably configure it, but the most portable way that works everywhere is to simply press it twice quickly. It's only barely slower than the DOS way of doing it, and much faster than pressing and waiting for a second.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ptspts 1y ago
This should have been solved in the last 30 years on Linux console, X terminal emulators and through SSH.
- mmastrac 1y ago
  The kitty key protocol solves this, but your app and terminal need to support it. Many do.
- tracker1 1y ago
  It's more of a "just in case" thing for the most part... the actual risk of an escape as part of a sequence showing up over TCP without the rest for over a fraction of a second today is highly unlikely. That said, so many systems seem to add a delay well over half a second like we're using dialup. I'd probably tune the delay to 100-200ms if I ever really felt it and have the option to change it.
zahlman 1y ago
In gnome-terminal, I have yet to succeed in inputting an escape sequence manually without the escape key being interpreted separately.
couscouspie 1y ago
I don't even understand the problem: ESC and the following key is generally just an alias for ALT+key.

javier_e06 1y ago

Ah Norton Commander. It sure throws me back to the Intel Pentium days. Today for that left versus right birds eye view, just-do-it, operations I use beyond compare.